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]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
10-09-2012, 10:51 AM
I was congratulating forum member justmund on his modified PRS (seen here (http://prsguitars.com/forum/showthread.php?1708-SE-EG-Project-Blackie)) and praised him for being an "Owner". He mentioned that he never saw the thread (on BaM, may it rest in peace). Half-way through my response, I thought it prudent to revive the discussion in a thread all it's own.

(EDIT: While the original post (and this one) was about MY journey, those two words (caretaker & Owner) carried on in the community. I added them to the Lexicon and then deleted them when it was clearly the wrong thing to do. I'm not trying to apply labels to anyone. I'm just describing my own experiences. If they resonate with you too, then I suppose we have even more in common than before.)

The gist of the original thread was that I was at a cross-road in my journey from guitar player to guitar collector and was slowly making my way back to being a guitar player who happens to have a guitar collection. My fear of hurting the value of my guitars was starting to get a little silly. In my original thread, I mentioned that I no longer felt the need to keep them perfect for the next guy to enjoy. I called that (keeping them perfect) the Caretaker perspective. A caretaker, to me, regards each guitar as an investment and keeps them nice, presumably, for the next guy to consume. That's not to say that people who prefer them flawless are all Caretakers.

Many of my guitars were destined to spend their lives in the case. Their basic value was tied, primarily, to my selfishness and greed. The Caretaker perspective is now the thing I dislike most in myself. It is ever-present. But I am committed to becoming a full-time Owner. Even if I'm an Owner with a collection - which may include some guitars that hardly ever leave the case.

An Owner, in the context of this discussion, is not afraid to play, modify, or scratch/dent the guitar. I didn't say that an owner is concerned about keeping the guitar nice - just that if a scratch or dent happens, its just part of the ownership experience. An Owner is prepared to consume the value of each guitar in his/her lifetime -- leaving something between a well played guitars and a worthless pile of sticks upon his/her departure. An Owner makes each guitar "a tool" to accomplish a task. A beautiful tool, sure... but a tool nonetheless. An Owner with Caretaker tendencies will probably remember the time and place of every single ding and dent. I think that's a bonus. That brings me to the heart of the original thread... when you really own a guitar, it becomes more than a tool; it becomes a diary of a life well-lived.

Example: I had a stunning HB2 Artist once. My daughter, Eden, closed the lid of case as I was removing the guitar. It received a small ding from a latch on the case. I was really upset about it (like a good Caretaker) at the time. I sold that guitar - which I regret. Now, 4 years later, I see it very differently. That ding is mine! It was made made by my daughter when she was a year old. I will never forget the moment and having that guitar would make the memory a little more vivid. More tangible, if you will. I feel so silly that I got upset about it. I really wish I had THAT guitar back. I would never repair that ding. It was an entry into the diary of my life - and my journey with Eden. Why would I want to erase that?

Anyway... I am an Owner at heart but I carry on as a Caretaker. It's a 60/40 split in favor (to my frustration) of the Caretaker. Being a full-time Owner is an important goal of mine. I may never get there but I'm going to try.

Rango
10-09-2012, 11:10 AM
Oh I so get this....
I was a "caretaker" of a Les Paul Custom for 20 years... I've become an owner of several guitars the past two years. I actually like to find used guitars that already have a ding - "pre disastered" - so they are ready to be players and it overcomes my "Caretaker" tendencies. My description was I went from being a Guitar "owner" to a guitar "player".

I had one guitar that I considered to valuble to play... so I just sold it. I have an R9 that sort of falls into that catagory so the first thing I did with it was GIG it. It was build in my daughters Birth year... I'm going to give it some history before she gets it. ;)

aduayer
10-09-2012, 11:16 AM
Hans, you are a poet. loved it.

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
10-09-2012, 11:18 AM
Oh I so get this....
I was a "caretaker" of a Les Paul Custom for 20 years... I've become an owner of several guitars the past two years. I actually like to find used guitars that already have a ding - "pre disastered" - so they are ready to be players and it overcomes my "Caretaker" tendencies. My description was I went from being a Guitar "owner" to a guitar "player".

I had one guitar that I considered to valuble to play... so I just sold it. I have an R9 that sort of falls into that catagory so the first thing I did with it was GIG it. It was build in my daughters Birth year... I'm going to give it some history before she gets it. ;)Then how can you tell your history from that of the previous owner?


Hans, you are a poet. loved it.

That's nice of you to say, Alex. :)

veinbuster
10-09-2012, 11:21 AM
I think I am an owner who tries to take care of things.
I usually only buy things that I am going to suck every speck of life out of, but I do treat them in such a way as to maximuize that life.

prsguitarman101
10-09-2012, 11:25 AM
I am a little of both I guess. I just recently acquired a 2005 CE 24, and it was used, and of course had a few dings here and there, and some buckle rash on the back, but that is ok, as it is a player, and that is what I intend to do is play the bejeezus out of it...hahahahaha. However I will try to be a caretaker, and hope it doesnt get any more boo-boo's, but if it does it just gives it character :D
:p22::p22:

cjmwrx
10-09-2012, 12:26 PM
I am an owner. I was a caretaker when I first started playing again. Now that I am serious about finally getting theory down, they are just tools of the trade.

I now have only one PRS, my Cu24 EIRW, and it goes everywhere with me. I have a Martin 00028 for my acoustic that travels as well. It gets dings (I still ***** about them) but I am not afraid to use/take it anywhere.

I am also down to only one amp now. My Mesa/Boogie DC3. I recapped it, and keep an entire set of tubes on hand for failures. Play it through my 2x12 Recto cab when I need to sound "bigger".

Twinfan
10-09-2012, 12:52 PM
I am an "Owner" of all but one of my guitars, the rest get used and enjoyed regularly. My ME1 has dings, tarnished hardware and buckle rash which I guess means I've completely devalued it; however, I gigged it regularly and have some great memories of doing so!

My current #1 squeeze for live work is a PS Signature that I dropped on its first outing just after soundcheck, causing a big ding in the lower edge. I was really upset at the time, then I played the snot out of if at that gig and have continued to do so since. I completely OWN that guitar now! :cheers:

markie
10-09-2012, 01:11 PM
I believe I am a "Caretaker" of all my Guitars. However, I do play them. I just can't get my head around being careless with them. I cannot understand why anyone would wear a belt buckle, shirt with buttons, or metalhead rings while playing an expensive guitar. I understand the World is made up of all types. I also know that if you take care of anything, it will still be nice in 3-5-10-20 years. My wife can have nice furniture if she wants it. If she is going to let my Grandchildren destroy it.............. She needs to get it at a rumage sale or Goodwill.

LSchefman
10-09-2012, 01:14 PM
There is a third possibility, Hans: Owners who take care of their stuff! And for themselves, not for the next guy.

In fact, there are probably as many possibilities as there are people.

I have never thought of guitars as an investment. I've never, ever worried about, or even given a moment's thought, to resale value. Resale value is irrelevant to me, despite the fact that I've bought and sold many. I don't plan on selling them, it just seems to happen sometimes.

I take care of my guitars because I enjoy OWNING pristine ones!

And certainly not to build a collection, since as you know, I am not that guy.

Example of my habits:

In the past I had expensive European cars I kept pristine enough to participate in concours events, but I also raced those very same cars on the track. You want to tell me I didn't OWN cars I drove on race tracks?

Come to think of it, my brother won several autocross championships with his immaculate 1973 Lotus JPS that he bought in 1974. It's also been his daily driver to this day! I would say he owns the car after 38 years... But it still looks new. He's his own PTC. :)

Any guitar I have gets played on sessions for my livelihood. All of my studio equipment gets daily use. But I take really, really good care of it. Which is not difficult, and requires no special treatment beyond being a bit careful and fixing anything that goes wrong. I have preamps that look new after 20 years in the rack. Does it matter that they look new? I own those preamps.

Owning a instrument, and keeping that instrument in pristine shape, are NOT mutually exclusive. I OWN my guitars, dagnab it. ;)

You don't own a car any less if you have a dent repaired do you? Or if you wax it? Why would you feel that you have to keep dents and scratches on a guitar when they, too, can easily be repaired? One day your daughter may dent your car. You gonna keep the dent to remind yourself how cute she was at 16?

Nor does one drive a car carelessly in order to "own" it.

The whole categorization of owners vs. caretakers is pointless, since everyone's habits are different. Why the need to generalize?

I completely agree with Markie!

Yeah. I'm an OWNER. And my guitars look freakin' GREAT.

AP515
10-09-2012, 01:25 PM
I was at a local theater turned bar last year to watch a friend of mine's band play. There was a warm up band playing when I got there and the lead guitarist was playing a CE24. This is a New Rock/Metal genre. The guy was jumping around on stage like most do these days but then at the end he did what I decided to write about. He held the last power chord and as the crowd cheered, he walked around on stage and banged it on cabs and mic stands. Then he took off the strap and threw his PRS on the floor (making sure that it landed flat on it's back). Now, IMO he is neither a caretaker nor an owner. He's just a stupid player.

I have collected a number of really nice PRSi over the years, but I don't think of them as a collection. I play them all regularly. Then again, when playing I don't bang them into anything I can find either. I don't mind the inevitable ding, but I try to take as good of care with them as possible. I wear soft clothes when practicing and when performing I have fun but take care at the same time. I guess that makes me an "Owner/Player" with a "Collector" mentality.

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
10-09-2012, 01:51 PM
I just can't get my head around being careless with them. I cannot understand why anyone would wear a belt buckle, shirt with buttons, or metalhead rings while playing an expensive guitar.


There is a third possibility, Hans: Owners who take care of their stuff! And for themselves, not for the next guy.

I certainly agree on both counts. If you saw the 1st thread, both points were well made.

IMO, being an owner does not mean you have to be careless or destroy them deliberately.


The whole categorization of owners vs. caretakers is pointless, since everyone's habits are different. Why the need to generalize?

The original thread got off on this foot too. It was about me and my journey and, somehow, became something more - like I was judging those who wish to remain caretakers, which isn't the case. I also made it clear that there is no way I could be one or the other. I am absolutely in both camps.

Nothing about this discussion is intended to categorize or generalize the philosophy or tendencies of others. It had nothing to do with anyone but myself until I posed the question... "Which of the two are you?"

Both or None are also acceptable answers.

garrett
10-09-2012, 01:59 PM
I'm very much an owner. Buying or building a guitar is always a well thought out decision for me. I always have intentions of playing it and keeping it long term. I do try to take great care of my gear, but dings happen with use, so I just wince when it happens and accept it.

But if you have the funds and the interest, I wouldn't see anything wrong with caretaking a collection of investments, and owning a collection of guitars to play. I don't think I could do it, though. It would drive me nuts if I had to be super careful. Guitars are like functional art to me. Seems a shame for them to be hidden away in cases.

crgtr
10-09-2012, 02:52 PM
I am an owner, but I try not to damage my gear. Now my tele might tell you different.....but that's another story. I do try & keep everything in working order & I like shiny new guitars, but if I buy it, I WILL play it in any dive bar gig. I don't have any PS gtrs, but if I did, i would be out and getting sweaty.

Hopeful Sinner
10-09-2012, 03:05 PM
I invest in mutual funds. I enjoy guitars. I have a friend that gave me mountains of crap for converting my 1996 Custom 22 to McSwitching. It's the way I prefer to change those sounds.. I am most comfortable with that layout. His argument is that I killed the collectibility of the instrument. Same guy used to buy toys and never open them for fear of killing the value but swore a love for those items. If you call yourself an enjoyer of guitars, or anything else for that matter, but are that uptight about resale value are you truly enjoying the object of your affection? Now, by no means am I careless with my guitars but I most certainly consider myself an owner.

rugerpc
10-09-2012, 03:38 PM
I'm with Les and Markie on this one. PRS guitars in particular come at a premium. Taking care of them for myself isn't just prudent, it is part of the enjoyment.. I fix what I can fix and I try to avoid things that others might not - like belt buckles, etc.

I'm not good enough to play out, so my guitars live a rather sheltered existence in the first place. Their most dangerous trip is to be taken to a lesson.

All that said, these guitars have such innate beauty, why would you NOT want to try to keep them in as pristine shape as possible? You can play the piss out of them and still care for them. "Owning" them does not mean that they have to be ridden hard and put away wet.

Bill (look! something shiny!)

sergiodeblanc
10-09-2012, 03:38 PM
I cannot understand why anyone would wear a belt buckle, shirt with buttons, or metalhead rings while playing an expensive guitar.

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/sergiodeblanc/12445_192780958154_5929037_n-1.jpg

Sometimes that's just part of the gig! (Maybe not expensive for some of you but it seemed that way for me.)

Dirty Bob
10-09-2012, 04:33 PM
I wonder if the guys in the new band I started playing in notice that I wear basically running/workout pants to every practice....wait until they see me tuck a cloth into my jeans that hangs over them...so I don't get buckle rash and worming!!!! I play my guitars...some guitars I have practically played to death...but I would like my guitars to be passed on to my children...in good condition!!! hardware/tarnishing...I've given up with dealing with it! Dings?....ask Shawn I once got a guitar back from the PTC...opened the case...took another guitar out of a gig bag and when I went to put the gig bag down the stupid zipper (yes I was in fact the stupid one and careless) hit the guitar as I turned around...boxed the guitar right back up and sent it back to the boys ASAP.

Fox77
10-09-2012, 04:37 PM
Owner. I do not baby my guitars and they all have traces of being played. But I'm not pulling any Townsend moves either :)

Rango
10-09-2012, 05:03 PM
-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©;25329']Then how can you tell your history from that of the previous owner?
There was no History ON the guitar. I have the history OF the guitar. The guy was a Strat Player, he bought it and put it under the bed. He was its caretaker, case still smelled of lacquer when you opened it and it had the original strings with no corrosion. He bought it as a celebration of 25 year sober but had other issues and it was time for it to move on. He was pleased when I told him what would happen to it.... I'd play it and hand it to my daughter when she was of age. :D

LSchefman
10-09-2012, 05:03 PM
-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©;25366']The original thread got off on this foot too. It was about me and my journey and, somehow, became something more - like I was judging those who wish to remain caretakers, which isn't the case.

Well it became something more because it's included in the PRS Lexicon that you linked to this thread:

"Owner - Someone who is not afraid to play, modify, or scratch/dent his/her guitar. An Owner is prepared to consume the full value of his/her guitar in his/her lifetime -- leaving only a worthless pile of sticks on his departure. An Owner makes each guitar "a tool" to accomplish a task. A beautiful tool, sure... but a tool nonetheless. An Owner regards his/her guitar as a diary of a life well-lived. An owner is the opposite of a Caretaker."

Now, I realize that you took a certain poetic and creative license here. Nothing wrong with that.

If you meant to apply it only to yourself, you should maybe call it "Hans' Lexicon" instead of the PRS Lexicon? Because nothing in that definition limits its applicability to only you. And if memory serves, you made this definition up, please correct me if I'm wrong.

You're saying you're not "judging those who wish to remain caretakers." I suppose you can make up a definition of a word, and apply it to whoever you like, and not make a judgment about them, as in whether they're good or bad. But to define someone (even yourself) necessarily involves a judgment as to whether a person at the very least fits into that category.

And by the same token, the people you'd define with your own special meaning don't have to accept your definition.

As an Owner, I have no wish to consume an instrument and leave a worthless pile of sticks. I know of wonderful instruments treasured and used professionally by generations of their owners and players, that were built in the 17th and 18th Centuries. They're used to their very fullest potential to make music that people enjoy, most by professional orchestra players who play the full repertoire on them. What else would you have them do?

Leave a pile of sticks on top of everything else?

Of course not. I know you don't mean that. But they're hardly caretakers. They probably spend more time practicing and playing than most of the folks you'd define as "owners." Many practice - not just perform, practice - 8 hours a day. They play the crap out of these six and seven figure instruments.

So part of my Ownership decision making is to keep the instruments in a condition I personally enjoy and demand for my own professional use, and part of my Ownership decision is to do the opposite of leaving a worthless pile of sticks.

I think it's perfectly cool that you'll make your own ownership decisions for yourself. But that doesn't make this one an owner, and that one a caretaker.

Meantime, you're a great guy, I like you a lot, and I have no quarrel. But I'd prefer to stick with the dictionary definition, "A person who owns something." I work hard and sweat blood to Own my instruments. That's what makes me want to keep them in great shape. And enjoy playing them all the more. ;)

Les

PRS Owner. ;)

Harker1440
10-09-2012, 05:20 PM
I am a PLAYER and according to SOME People here on the forum a FLIPPER

Dirty Bob
10-09-2012, 06:21 PM
I am a PLAYER and according to SOME People here on the forum a FLIPPER

Funny you don't look like a dolphin!

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
10-09-2012, 06:23 PM
Les,

You make so many points it's hard to give a single answer. Let me try to give your post the response it deserves. Please excuse me for chopping up into consumable pieces.


Well it became something more because it's included in the PRS Lexicon that you linked to this thread:

"Owner - Someone who is not afraid to play, modify, or scratch/dent his/her guitar. An Owner is prepared to consume the full value of his/her guitar in his/her lifetime -- leaving only a worthless pile of sticks on his departure. An Owner makes each guitar "a tool" to accomplish a task. A beautiful tool, sure... but a tool nonetheless. An Owner regards his/her guitar as a diary of a life well-lived. An owner is the opposite of a Caretaker."

Now, I realize that you took a certain poetic and creative license here. Nothing wrong with that.

If you meant to apply it only to yourself, you should maybe call it "Hans' Lexicon" instead of the PRS Lexicon? Because nothing in that definition limits its applicability to only you. And if memory serves, you made this definition up, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Good point. I deleted both words from the Lexicon thread. I also clarified this point in my opening post in the hopes than no one else gets the wrong idea. And finally, I've edited the title of the thread.


You're saying you're not "judging those who wish to remain caretakers." I suppose you can make up a definition of a word, and apply it to whoever you like, and not make a judgment about them, as in whether they're good or bad. But to define someone (even yourself) necessarily involves a judgment as to whether a person at the very least fits into that category.

And by the same token, the people you'd define with your own special meaning don't have to accept your definition.

Exactly.


As an Owner, I have no wish to consume an instrument and leave a worthless pile of sticks.

"Worthless pile of sticks" was just a fun way of making my point.


I know of wonderful instruments treasured and used professionally by generations of their owners and players, that were built in the 17th and 18th Centuries. They're used to their very fullest potential to make music that people enjoy, most by professional orchestra players who play the full repertoire on them. What else would you have them do?

Leave a pile of sticks on top of everything else?

Of course not. I know you don't mean that. But they're hardly caretakers. They probably spend more time practicing and playing than most of the folks you'd define as "owners." Many practice - not just perform, practice - 8 hours a day. They play the crap out of these six and seven figure instruments.

So this goes back to the same problem with the 1st thread. Some people read the first post and interpreted it to read "go forth and deliberately beat up your guitar(s)." That, of course, is not what I meant at all. I don't know how else to explain so I just leave it at that.


So part of my Ownership decision making is to keep the instruments in a condition I personally enjoy and demand for my own professional use, and part of my Ownership decision is to do the opposite of leaving a worthless pile of sticks.

Which feeds perfectly into the point... they're yours. Do what you want with them. If keeping them pristine for the next guy is what turns your crank, more power to you. I, on the other hand, would like to get past my fear of playing my Rosewood Limited (to choose one guitar as an example). It's a killer playing and sounding guitar. What value does it have if I never play it? Sure it brings me joy to "have" something so special but how does that serve me? The caretaker in me needs to shut the hell up and let the owner swap the pups and risk scratching it by actually playing it. But I still wouldn't play it with a big belt buckle. ;)


I think it's perfectly cool that you'll make your own ownership decisions for yourself. But that doesn't make this one an owner, and that one a caretaker.

I'm a pretty confident guy, Les. But I wouldn't be so bold as to try an force people into labels. The thread posed a simple question. If it doesn't apply to you, then blow it off. If the subject rings true for you and you've had a similar experience, jump in. But, really, I'm not trying to label anyone.


Meantime, you're a great guy, I like you a lot, and I have no quarrel. But I'd prefer to stick with the dictionary definition, "A person who owns something." I work hard and sweat blood to Own my instruments. That's what makes me want to keep them in great shape. And enjoy playing them all the more. ;)

Les

PRS Owner. ;)
Right on.

~Hans
PRS Owner & Caretaker

alantig
10-09-2012, 07:09 PM
Man, I've thought about this too much over the past few years.

At times, I've been too much of a caretaker and not enough of an owner. My PRSi reside in their cases, partly because they're in my basement and I don't want them to get damaged unnecessarily. But they all get played. I've had that sinking feeling when taking a guitar off only to pause in the midst of removal when the headstock hit a track lighting fixture. Followed by moments of self-recrimination for worrying about it.

I don't gig. At times, I wish I did. But if I ever do again, I'll take some of my PRSi. That's why I have them.

But "use" and "abuse", as has been pointed out, are not necessarily synonymous.

As for the guys who throw them around, if one of us were to obtain a legendary guitarist's icon axe, throw it on the ground, stand on it and bend the neck in, beat on it mercilessly and then post a video of it, there wouldn't be enough kindling in the world to supply the flames that would be directed at us.

Jump to 3:45.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OPhW8dy-Fg#t=3m45s

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
10-09-2012, 07:13 PM
I am a PLAYER and according to SOME People here on the forum a FLIPPER
I thought flipping was just your schtick.

But that's an entirely different thread... which also died with BaM. Not that I'm calling you a flipper...



___________________________________:creep:

LSchefman
10-09-2012, 07:18 PM
-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©;25403']I, on the other hand, would like to get past my fear of playing my Rosewood Limited. It's a killer playing and sounding guitar. The caretaker in me needs to shut the hell up and let the owner in me swap the pups and risk scratching it by playing it. But I still wouldn't play it with a big belt buckle. ;)

I'm laying it bare, Hans. Here's the full extent of my madness:

I move my belt buckle to my side, away from the body of the guitar when I play. That plus wearing an untucked T-shirt (or other knit shirt) has been enough to prevent worming and scratches.

I keep them cased when not being played. Dirt gets cleaned off the guitar body when needed with a damp microfiber cloth, and dried with a clean one. When the humidity drops below 35%, I turn on a humidifier in the room I keep them in.

I change the strings when they lose their tone or start to feel crummy. If they need adjustment, I get them adjusted (but that hasn't happened in a long time because of the humidifier and case habit).

Light scratches, I can polish out. If I got a dent that bothered me, I'd probably send the guitar to PTC for repair, and get a setup as well just for the sheer joy of it.

In any case, while I'm careful to try not to bump the guitar into things, the existence of the PTC is a reassuring thing, since I have so much confidence that they'd do a great job with any repair.

clcwarlock
10-09-2012, 08:35 PM
I'm an owner, I play my PRSi as much as I can, I bought both new so that I was the only one with my hands on them. After I am gone my kids will be able to see the wear I put on them and if they play they can have a connection with the instrument that started out in our family new with me, Dad. I sent the warranty card in for my custom 24 and I'll be sending the warranty card in for my P24. I will take care of thee 2 beautiful instruments but I am not afraid to play them.

bluefade
10-09-2012, 09:30 PM
Unless i miss my guess, HANS is deep into his menopausal state. Peace be with you!

JMintzer
10-09-2012, 09:55 PM
Unless i miss my guess, HANS is deep into his menopausal state. Peace be with you!

If you have personal issues, please refrain from airing them on the forum. Thank you.

markie
10-09-2012, 11:00 PM
I put a nice gash in a CU24 at a Gig several years back..................... sold it the next week :bawling:

aristotle
10-10-2012, 12:05 AM
Interesting....never really thought about it much. Guitars seem pretty sturdy to me. I guess I don't jump off of amps or anything while gigging, but is stuff really getting banged up that much from "normal" playing and gigging? The debate seems more like an intellectual exercize rather than a practical thing. Sure, I could ding a headstock while gigging by bumping into something, but it seems just as likely that I'd do that at home. I suppose I could just leave guitars in their cases, and fine by me if someone gets a kick out of just knowing that they have a really cool guitar in a case in a closet, but that wouldn't work very well for me I think. I have a couple of vintage '54 LPs, and if I'm playing out with them, I put them back in their case between sets rather than leave them on a stand like I normally do.....but that's mainly because they've survived so long and are in such good shape that it seems like there is a history worth protecting. Even so, I wouldn't get a charge out of having them if I couldn't take them out and about. It just seems to me that if you watch belt buckles, and aren't going nuts on stage, the risk is pretty small. And if it isn't a vintage guitar where originality is important, if something gets banged up, it isn't that tough to fix it.

justmund
10-10-2012, 12:21 AM
Ahh ok so maybe I do remember this thread now! Thanks Hans for bringing it back to life, it certainly makes for some interesting reflection and discussion.

I'm probably about a 70/30 split between "owner" and "caretaker" (I play all my guitars but take care of them). One thing the EG build has shown me is how much I enjoy tinkering and modifying things, whether it be motorbikes or guitars, there's something that appeals to me about having something that is different, something I have worked on, so there's more investment than just $. I've invested time building it, and now I'm going to invest time playing it. If a scratch or ding comes along perhaps due to some over-enthusiastic behavior, I guess that's part of the investment, and the return is the memories of how it got there (which is echoing Hans' first post).

Thinking about other ways to invest, it could be "the search", scouring dealers, on-line markets etc for "the one" ("the one" being whatever you have GAS for at the time...), walking into guitar shops and demo'ing a guitar, gelling instantly and creating a bond, and perhaps one of the more pertinent ones would be speccing a Private Stock... The investment of time/energy deciding on all the options, taking the risk that it'll work out how you think it will, the wait, the anxiety, the glory of opening the case for the first time, strumming it, plugging it in...

Maybe one day I'll can afford (in $) to make the "investment" of a PS, I think that satisfaction of having something different, something I have worked on etc will be there.

aduayer
10-10-2012, 01:21 AM
I don't keep my guitars in their cases. all of them are in guitar stands and when I have to transport them, I use the gig bag. I do take care of them, but I don't mind if they have dings and or scratches. I don't like relic and fake age process, but I don't mind when the guitar isn't shinning and perfect looking.
I like to think of myself of a owner or heavy user and not an abuser.

Jazzedout
10-10-2012, 01:53 AM
Well, I don't like it when my guitars get scars and bruises (which sometimes can't be avoided), but on the ohter hand I did a piezo install on my Cu24
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg191/Jazzedout/PRS%20Custom%2024%201996/DSCN3851.jpg

Mikegarveyblues
10-10-2012, 02:06 AM
Generally I look upon my guitars as the tools of my trade for the most part. I'm not giving any thought to passing them on or selling them. They're mine and there to be played by me. Like any tool I look after them as best I can so I can get the best out of them but I don't treat them with kid gloves...

Actually, that's not strictly true. I do when I first get them but once I start seeing those first signs of wear and tear then I worry less. I'm generally not afraid to take them apart and modify them if they need it and I feel i'm up to the job, indeed with my cheapos such as my Yamaha Pacifica and Squier anything goes. Did my own fret dress on the Squier which turned out reasonably well but I wouldn't dream of doing that to my main Strat or Bernie, let alone a $2k+ guitar.

I want them there ready to play and I want them all to play as well as can be and sound as good as they can. They all sit on a modified stand in a (locked) room which I monitor with a couple of Thermometer/hygrometers so it's fair to say i'm much more uptight about looking after my music equipment than perhaps anything else I own. It's an investment of sorts. Not with a view to sell on but I put all my hard earned cash into my equipment so I want to get the best out of it for as long as possible.

I do feel I have to be honest here though...

I don't own any expensive guitars and never have. I will once i've got on the housing ladder but for now I aim to get the best out of more modestly priced equipment. Would I treat a £2k+ PRS any differently from my current guitars? To start with certainly... It'd be like a scene from Spinal Tap, "Don't even look at it!" :) But i'd have to ask hard questions of myself if I was so worried about the guitar I feared playing it. I guess I won't really know until it happens.

Same with collecting. Part of me thinks "Why collect guiars? They should be played", but that's possibly the view of someone who can't afford to collect. I have a niggling suspicion that if I could afford to collect I may well do.

Ultimately, perhaps, the guitar would have to mean something to you in some way whether it gets played or not. I think if I had a lot of guitars but some rarely came out of a case then i'd offload them. Hopefully i'd be left with guitars I enjoy playing and guitars that have some kind of meaning or story to them.

south89
10-10-2012, 07:46 AM
Well Hans yet another interesting thread that has brought out views of all kinds which is great. I would consider myself an owner that just likes fine guitars. I gig out regulary with my sig limited and it is getting alot of scars quickly ( mainly on the back ) but its not really bothering me because when I'm gigging its more about playing the best guitar I have and feeling the most comfortable with it. I don't own any PS or one offs but if I did , I'm guessing I would be playing out with those also but thats just who I am and not everybody is the same . That being said one of my first PRSi was a 94 McCarty and I gigged with it until I became a little more informed and realized that is one guitar that will probably never see a stage again . Just me putting my two cents in on the conversation.:beer::cheers:

docbennett
10-10-2012, 08:48 AM
I am one of those who became a bit "defensive" about the term "Caretaker" on the original BaM thread. Some of my defensiveness derived from the comments of some members who wrote about how "proud they were to deliberately make their first dink or dent on their otherwise pristine guitar" so that "they could now say that it was theirs". this, I thought, was just plain crazy. To deliberately mar a nice object, just to show "ownership"? Not in my repertoire of possible behaviors, and in my opinion a reckless disregard for the value an item represents.

As far as this thread goes....I am a collector like Markie....but I care for my instruments in a similar fashion to both he and Les. I do not allow myself to play with belt buckles rubbing against the back, and I always try to remember my low ceilings in the basement when I decide to jump around while soloing. If I put a dink in a guitar...I typically obsess for days until I decide to have it repaired. and like bob above...I have had a guitar repaired by PTC and (due to my own carelessness) put it right back in the box for a new repair within days of getting it back for another spot repair.

That being said...I have a couple of "players" that I am not that concerned about. Anyone who has seen my white '86 standard would know that this is a guitar you can play and not worry about damaging its appearance. However, the bulk of my collection are kept in the case, rotated regularly for play, and maintained as meticuloously as possible. And yes..I have been a frequent consumer of the PTC's ability to repair obvious damage.

So...in the final analysis....I am a collector who plays....Which I guess makes me a "caretaker, through and through". I try to care for all my instruments in a manner to keep them as pristine as when I originally bought them....and, with the exception of a chosen few...I know that at some point in the future I will pare down the collection to the barest of essentials....2 electric guitars, 1 acoustic and maybe 2 amps. But...until then....guitars are one of the few places that I can see pumping funds into...enjoying for some time....keeping them in great condition...and then ultimately getting a return on your original investment that is reasonable despite having "consumed" the object for many years.

PS....in my opinion...those who are professional musicians have no need to be "caretakers". but, as Les and Markie have said before....you don't have to rough house or otherwise abuse your guitar to be a great player. It's just that a professional musician probably only rotates between a couple of guitars, and the wear and tear put on those is designed to earn a living as opposed to sustain a collection.

rugerpc
10-10-2012, 09:30 AM
Jump to 3:45.

I'm sitting here and I just don't know what to write about this. SRV, Hendrix, Townsend, even Keith Moon and John Bonham got sounds (is it still music?) out of their instruments through means I could never use, even if I were independently wealthy.

It just isn't in me.

Les mentioned the care classical musicians have for their instruments. Think of a Stradivarius who's 'owner' decided it needed to be set on fire or thrown across the room... What makes it OK to flail a guitar or destroy a set of drums as part of a 'performance?'

I hear you thinking that a $2k - $5K guitar is a different thing than a priceless Stradivarius and I say bull s**t! It is only different by degree.

I reject totally that one has to be blasé about even a dent or nick to be an 'owner.' PRSh is adamant that the guitars he builds are to be used, to be played. But that doesn't mean that they are not works of art. They are 'working art.'

When you own something it is yours to do with as you please. But what are we to think of someone who buys something and consumes it entirely when with care it could last for generations. I'm not thinking of the so many things in our society that are consumable and disposable from pencils to even what used to be considered 'durable goods' like washers and dryers. I'm talking about objects that we can use with out using them up in the process.

I think guitars (musical instruments) fall into that category.

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
10-10-2012, 10:14 AM
I reject totally that one has to be blasé about even a dent or nick to be an 'owner.'

Concur. That was never an assertion.

Consider, then, the guitar owner who loves his guitar, cares for it, and cringes when it gets a ding. He NEVER forgets where he was, what he was doing, maybe even the song being played when that ding occurred BECAUSE of his love for the guitar. How does that guitar not become a diary?

I still struggle to understand why anyone thinks I'm suggesting that I want to be casual about damaging my guitars.

Shawn@PRS
10-10-2012, 10:43 AM
Do you think they're having this same conversation on the "Hondo Guitar Forum"?

LSchefman
10-10-2012, 11:57 AM
-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©;25486']Consider, then, the guitar owner who loves his guitar, cares for it, and cringes when it gets a ding. He NEVER forgets where he was, what he was doing, maybe even the song being played when that ding occurred BECAUSE of his love for the guitar. How does that guitar not become a diary?

I have a '65 SG Special with plenty of little dings. But to be truthful, though I put most of them there, I don't remember how a single one got there.

I remember the gigs, though. Some in a general way, at this point. Others very specifically.

I wish I'd made recordings of live gigs over the years, taken pics and video. That would be a more moving diary, at least for me, than looking at guitar dings.


-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©;25486']I still struggle to understand why anyone thinks I'm suggesting that I want to be casual about damaging my guitars.

It's a matter of folks unintentionally misreading what you mean by the "pile of sticks" definition, etc., as I did.

I get that what you're saying is that you want to be less obsessive about your guitars' condition, and enjoy them more by using them without fear of damage.

I grok that your quest for "ownership" isn't about causing damage, but instead it's about controlling your own impulse to keep the guitars safe from damage.

Ultimately, this is why I believe it's not truly relevant to talk about "owners" and "caretakers," since those terms really don't have useful application.

There are owners who play their instruments, whose interests in keeping the guitars shiny varies as a matter of individual preference.

And there are owners who don't play them, for a variety of reasons, including fear of damage.

Moreover, there are probably some owners who keep some guitars safe in their collections, and who play others without fear of damage..

Ultimately we're all individuals, doing things in our own individual ways. I'm not convinced it's useful to create what I see as somewhat arbitrary distinctions, but if it helps you to overcome your own reluctance to do what you want with your stuff, I say more power to ya. :)


Do you think they're having this same conversation on the "Hondo Guitar Forum"?

I just saw that there is one! But it doesn't seem to be working. ;)

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
10-10-2012, 12:05 PM
I have a '65 SG Special with plenty of little dings. But to be truthful, though I put most of them there, I don't remember how a single one got there.

You're a lucky man. I've often thought that the loss of some long-term memory would do me some good.

LSchefman
10-10-2012, 12:13 PM
-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©;25492']You're a lucky man. I've often thought that the loss of some long-term memory would do me some good.

47 years is a long time to remember a ding.

rugerpc
10-10-2012, 12:23 PM
-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©;25486']Concur. That was never an assertion.

Consider, then, the guitar owner who loves his guitar, cares for it, and cringes when it gets a ding. He NEVER forgets where he was, what he was doing, maybe even the song being played when that ding occurred BECAUSE of his love for the guitar. How does that guitar not become a diary?

I don't have a problem with your diary notion. If that is what floats your boat and makes you happy, the inevitable dents and dings from use need not be repaired.

I don't have that desire, though. I have the memories in my head and they are no less real because they are not physically represented as a mar on a thing of beauty. I prefer photography, video, audio recordings, letters and cards to dents and dings.


-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©;25486']I still struggle to understand why anyone thinks I'm suggesting that I want to be casual about damaging my guitars.

Maybe it is because of this part of your original text:



-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©;25324']An Owner, in the context of this discussion, is not afraid to play, modify, or scratch/dent the guitar. An Owner is prepared to consume the value of each guitar in his/her lifetime -- leaving a worthless pile of sticks on his departure.

Yes, I saw your explanation that 'worthless pile of sticks' was just an embellishment to make our point. But the notion of consuming the value of each guitar in his/her lifetime is still part of your premise unless I'm reading that wrong.

I'm not accomplished as a guitar player. Most of the instruments I own some would argue that I don't deserve because I cannot play them to their sonic abilities. I own them because I can afford them.

But that doesn't mean that I don't appreciate them. As I have stated many times on this forum, I take guitar lessons. I want to be able to take advantage of these beautiful instruments in the same way that I can make my drums sing. But my drumming journey is over 45 years in length and my guitar journey only beginning.

My plans for my guitars is to get to the point where I'm good enough that it makes sense for me to choose one over another for this or that song, to be able to know that I need to make pup changes, to know that I need a standard for a tone I'm seeking instead of a maple top....

But, I'm confident that I can eventually do all of these things without 'consuming' the instruments I own.

Mikegarveyblues
10-10-2012, 12:44 PM
I guess it's just finding that middle ground...

Treating the instruments with respect and looking after them as best as possible but not being so worried about them that they remain hidden away in cases.

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
10-10-2012, 12:46 PM
I'm confident that I can eventually do all of these things without 'consuming' the instruments I own.

With 24 PRS guitars (and one on order), I am too. This is a philosophical thing, not a literal thing. Being "prepared to consume" the full value of my guitars in my own lifetime is a mindset.

Brian May has been playing and touring with the same guitar for decades; the one he made with his father.

rugerpc
10-10-2012, 12:57 PM
-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©;25499']With 24 PRS guitars (and one on order), I am too. This is a philosophical thing, not a literal thing. Being "prepared to consume" the full value of my guitars in my own lifetime is a mindset.

Brian May has been playing and touring with the same guitar for decades; the one he made with his father.

I'm with ya, bro. And I am honestly not trying to take any shots at you. I think we want the same journey with just different momentos.

My 1970 Ludwig acoustic drum set has been played and played. The Paiste cymbols and almost all of the drums and hardware show years and years of use, but the set overall is as beautiful as when it was new.

Now, if someone has a magic trick for speeding up my left hand when fretting from cord to cord or during a run, I need to know about that one. Until then, it's back to practicing in the new studio...

Hopeful Sinner
10-10-2012, 01:04 PM
My goodness we can be a pretentious bunch up in here.. All the arguments "opposed" to Hans terms come from, in the context of this thread, Caretakers. And they seem to take the definition of Caretaker as an insult they must defend. I haven't noticed one Owner in here pleading their case yet. How bizarre would it be if Frankie were trying to defend the shape Casper is in? Exactly, it would be insane! That guitar earned every dent, ding, smudge, smear and rusty piece of metal and there is nothing wrong with that. There is also nothing wrong with having a 25 year old mint condition museum piece that looks like it just rolled off the line. Anyway, it is entertaining as all get out to me so please, carry on...

rugerpc
10-10-2012, 01:21 PM
pretentious

uncool

docbennett
10-10-2012, 01:23 PM
-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©;25486']Concur. That was never an assertion.

Consider, then, the guitar owner who loves his guitar, cares for it, and cringes when it gets a ding. He NEVER forgets where he was, what he was doing, maybe even the song being played when that ding occurred BECAUSE of his love for the guitar. How does that guitar not become a diary?

I still struggle to understand why anyone thinks I'm suggesting that I want to be casual about damaging my guitars.

It wasn't YOU Hans....it was the responses that some other members gave to the original BaM thread "Owner vs. Caretaker". Some very bizarre responses...including one that went something like this:

"As soon as I get a new guitar, I never fail to put a dent in it so that I know that I OWN it".

and many variations on that theme...but one reply that was almost word for word what I quoted above....and it made me nauseous to read it.

I think you got painted with the same broad brush due to the fact that it was your thread and that you got many responses that were not only blase about getting the guitar damaged....but several that made it clear that the owner purposefully and intentionally damaged it to "claim ownership" or some other form of bullcrap.

It came off as an overly macho "I don't give a damn attitude"....and, surprisingly....IIRC, the most intentional reply with regard to "purposeful damage" was not from some "Macho shredder" but rather from a very respected member of the opposite sex who was an occasional contributor to the old forum. It was surprising and very disappointing to read. Intentional damage to claim "ownership"??? I was appalled.

I think that once someone read about the "intentional damage" it somehow got transferred onto you, the OP. However, I do believe this thread clarifies the concept and helps to dispel the concept that "intentional damage" is a good thing.

BTW...you are absolutely correct in your assumption earlier...as a "collector/owner" I can recall each tiny ding and dent that I have put into my guitar and remember the occasion. Any damage does represent a visual memory and diary of the event in question.

For example....here is my HML #20...pristine....

http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/drugdetox/HML%2020/100_4147.jpg

http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/drugdetox/HML%2020/100_5227.jpg

http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/drugdetox/HML%2020/100_5228.jpg

http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/drugdetox/HML%2020/100_5229.jpg

except for this....and I can recall exactly how it happened, and how I cursed myself for being so careless! If it was a PRS, it would have already been shipped to PTC, and I have considered more than once contacting Jack Pimental to find out how involved a repair would be. But, that is just my craziness. I understand that the guitar is still great, and I enjoy playing it....except when I look at that dent I put in it.

http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/drugdetox/HML%2020/100_5230.jpg

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
10-10-2012, 02:20 PM
I spent some time (at lunch) discussing this thread with a friend and confidant. He offered some perspectives that I had not considered; perspectives that I hope surface on their own.

It really is quite interesting to me how the discussion has unfolded - especially since this is the 2nd time around for me and many of my BaM brothers. A lot of people have a great deal of passion tied to this subject. That, in my mind, is a good thing.

For the record, I'm not upset at any of the responses. I do appreciate the reassurances but, unlike some folks who are easily rattled and fly off the handle with the ban button, I'm pretty good at taking tough discussions head-on; even looking in the mirror from time to time. Sure, I was taken aback by the way some of my words were interpreted by I think we've moved past that. I clarified where I thought I needed to and we seem to be moving forward.

PLEASE DON"T STARTING TAKING JABS AT EACH OTHER. There is something meaningful to be had through these discussions but we lose it all if we lose our temper.

I guess the only thing I'm really fearful of is someone jumping into this discussion without reading all of the posts, in context. But I would never stifle the passionate responses - so long as we observe the forum rules. We need honesty. Without it, we'll never get to the heart of anything worthwhile. The Truth must stand. It must. But take care to differentiate between my reality and your own. My truth may be very different from yours and there is no judgement regarding the delta between them.

As I said, I do appreciate every post in this thread. Yes, even post #29. If I can't laugh at myself then I have much bigger problems than my silly relationship with guitars..

Dirty Bob
10-10-2012, 02:50 PM
Look...I will say that I definitely play my guitars differently depending upon my current state of vigilence for the particular instrument I am playing...in extreme cases it has lead to mental hand cuffs in terms of creative output if you will...at the same point in time I have experienced that same mental block playing an instrument I have already dinged up...

sometimes I want a clean tone...sometimes I want distorted...sometimes I want to hear power amp distortion...sometimes preamp...some days I like red...some days I like blue....some days vintage yellow...or a metal...22 frets...or 24...humbuckers, single coils or P90's....some days I want to play a pristine guitar...others one of my road warriors...you get the point.

I personally want to be in a place that I can make great music on a particular instrument and then hopefully pass that exact guitar to my sons someday so that they can have a similar experience on that very same instrument. (with my luck they will take up the drums instead!!!!)...If it means me beating the snot out of a guitar (this doesnt mean putting it on the floor standing on it and trying to yank the trem bar out of the guitar)...and then me sending it back to the PTC to be babied well then fine!

Somebody said it best above that it is a very personal issue...and I believe PRS has taken amazing steps to capitalize on this very point with the PTC...take advantage of it or don't!

My Grandmother used to say "we are all like snowflakes!"

Do what makes you happy!

rugerpc
10-10-2012, 03:14 PM
Look...personally I will say that I definitely play my guitars differently depending upon my current state of vigilence for the particular instrument I am playing...in extreme cases it has lead to mental hand cuffs in terms of creative output if you will...at the same point in time I have experienced that same mental block playing an instrument I have already dinged up...

I tend to play all of my guitars rather tentatively - it is a product of being a beginner. I just don't have the confidence yet to play loudly or aggressively. I spend all my time handcuffed...


I personally want to be in a place that I can make great music on a particular instrument and then hopefully pass that exact guitar to my sons someday so that they can have a similar experience on that very same instrument. (with my luck they will take up the drums instead!!!!)

If they want drums, I'll have at least 2 sets that are still musical and worth owning to choose from when I can no longer swing a stick....

And I have thought a bit more about what Hans is talking about when he says he wants to not be afraid to play or modify his guitars.

I mentioned my 1970 Ludwig acoustic set. I was in high school. I added lights to the inside of all the drums except the snare that I could control with foot pedals. I drilled holes in one of my crash cymbals and added loose rivets for a 'sizzler.' Over the years, I alternately painted and polished other cymbals. I painted drum heads. I tuned them to wacky intervals. I added drums I got here and there with mounts I made myself. I used tiny sticks, big sticks and nylon and metal tipped sticks. I went through a phase where I played so aggressively that I had to wire the drum stands together to keep things from wandering off while I played.

But I never, not once, damaged anything just to damage it or make it look 'used' or 'relic' or 'mine.'

So, Hans, I get it. What I have done with my drums, you are looking to do with your guitars.

I'm not there with my guitars yet, but, as I said, that journey is just beginning.

Hopeful Sinner
10-10-2012, 03:26 PM
uncool

Really? That's the line? ;)

rugerpc
10-10-2012, 03:30 PM
Really? That's the line? ;)

pre·ten·tious/priˈtenCHəs/
Adjective:
Attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.

If that's how you view the posts in this thread, brother, then yes - uncool.

Hopeful Sinner
10-10-2012, 04:49 PM
pre·ten·tious/priˈtenCHəs/
Adjective:
Attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.

If that's how you view the posts in this thread, brother, then yes - uncool.

Gah, lighten up my man! I was taking a jab at ALL of us.. We aren't talking about whatever was in Marcellus Wallace's suitcase here, just guitars.. Darn fine guitars, but still, just guitars. And I stand by my position, the only ruffled feathers seem to be the guys that took "caretaking" as an insult. Which, by the way, has never been stated, nor implied as far as I can tell.

Dirty Bob
10-10-2012, 05:17 PM
According to my wife's reasoning...we are all out of our minds. I'm just glad she puts up with me and my obsession!

sergiodeblanc
10-10-2012, 05:22 PM
This is what my guitar looks like after playing it professionally for (almost) every day for nineteen years.
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/sergiodeblanc/IMG_0805.jpg

The first cut is the deepest.
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/sergiodeblanc/IMG_0967.jpg

The nitro fell off the neck by playing it.
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/sergiodeblanc/IMG_0970.jpg

The Lion of Judah on the TRC has kept it safe from theft, a trailer flipping end over end in the mountains of Colorado in a snow storm, being "lost" by United Airlines for three days, and an angry girlfriend.
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/sergiodeblanc/IMG_0969.jpg

It has some friends, but they are all jealous because it is the only one that goes everywhere.
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/sergiodeblanc/IMG_0976.jpg

I "own" and "take care" of my tools, and just like everybody else here who spends a good portion of their energy on this website, I am a "Fetishist".

The term "Caretaker" infers that you may not have a complete relationship with your instrument, you do not play professionally, you do not take it out of your home, you have little intent to keep it, you have more money than talent, and/or you do not play it passionately... which could be true.

The term "Owner" implies that you are too busy making music to care about a ding or dent, you are a badass player with no use for a tone knob, you lost your hangtag and never filled out your warranty card twenty years ago because you are never selling, chicks dig you, and you have the respect of non-PRS players because you jacked up that expensive "furniture" guitar so that makes you a real player and not a lawyer, doctor, or engineer... which may also be true.

The problem I have is that one option makes you defensive and feel like crap, while the other gives you a sense of superiority, I think it's pretty obvious which of the two choices is cooler.

I am truly happy for Hans that he is ready to settle down with "the one" after being left feeling unfulfilled and/or guilty by his misogynistic guitar trading. There are few things that feel better than knowing your instrument so familiarly that you don't have to "think" about where your pickup selector is placed, or where you are on the neck that you can just "feel" it instead. It gets you closer to the point of creation without as many obstacles in your way, and makes playing the guitar and finding your tone much easier. The only downside is that it could make you dependant on that particular instrument.

I often wonder how anybody can make a decision of a particular instruments value or potential within a few months time if you liked it enough at the store to plunk down your money, why would it no longer "do it" for you by the time the next and newest model came out? Why would you sell a guitar that you know is great only to replace it with the unknown?, if it is for the initial pleasure of buying a new material possession or a change in fashion I can understand to a degree (I clearly stated I am a fetishist), but give the one you're with a chance to prove its worth to you and let it see the world and share in your experiences of doing the one thing that all guitar players must do.

Play on.



I don't know

Dirty Bob
10-10-2012, 05:34 PM
Slightly off topic...

for clarification purposes once and for all...and I have this issue with many on TGP in relation to PRS.

Working your ass off and having the means to purchase fine instruments does not mean one does not have talent.

:box:

LSchefman
10-10-2012, 06:09 PM
I'd like to reiterate that my feathers were never ruffled; the disagreement with the definitions is indeed a philosophical matter and further, I have fun with these kinds of topics. I hope that no one was offended by any of my remarks!

I agree with Sergio, certain things are implied - perhaps unintentionally - when we use various terms. "Owner" sure sounds cooler than "caretaker" to me. And I agree with Bob's post, too.

What we all share is an enthusiasm for these great instruments. That's the thing that brings us together. And "we" is stronger than "me". ;)

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
10-10-2012, 06:17 PM
The term "Caretaker" infers that you may not have a complete relationship with your instrument, you do not play professionally, you do not take it out of your home, you have little intent to keep it, you have more money than talent, and/or you do not play it passionately... which could be true.

The term "Owner" implies that you are too busy making music to care about a ding or dent, you are a badass player with no use for a tone knob, you lost your hangtag and never filled out your warranty card twenty years ago because you are never selling, chicks dig you, and you have the respect of non-PRS players because you jacked up that expensive "furniture" guitar so that makes you a real player and not a lawyer, doctor, or engineer... which may also be true.And there they are... the words I did not say.

The feelings I do not feel.

The sentiment I did not try to "infer" or "imply".

Still, that is the perception of many.


I spent some time (at lunch) discussing this thread with a friend and confidant. He offered some perspectives that I had not considered; perspectives that I hope surface on their own.

Wish granted! I think it's worth discussing "why" that perspective keeps coming up.

Dirty Bob
10-10-2012, 07:29 PM
And I agree with Bob's post, ;)

Which one Les? My hippie snowflake post or my defiant 1%er ?
:cheers:

Dirty Bob
10-10-2012, 07:56 PM
If they want drums, I'll have at least 2 sets that are still musical and worth owning to choose from when I can no longer swing a stick.....

Very cool! My brother is a drummer and he's always really chill about letting them play it....(which they absolutely love to do) meanwhile I'm always afraid they are gonna hit one of the shells and mess it up!

justmund
10-10-2012, 09:14 PM
Do you think they're having this same conversation on the "Hondo Guitar Forum"?

Apparently not, because their site is down...

http://www.hondoforum.com/forum/index.html

LSchefman
10-10-2012, 09:41 PM
Which one Les? My hippie snowflake post or my defiant 1%er ?
:cheers:

The one before this one I'm quoting, I think.

CE-man
10-11-2012, 02:17 AM
I own a lot of antiques; furniture, housewares, etc., many over 200 years old, and although I own them I also consider myself the caretaker. I use all of the pieces daily and because I do they invariably show wear and signs of use. The fact that the antiques get used and have always been used adds character and creates what I feel makes them attractive. With that said, I maintain all the pieces in the best working condition in hopes that one day I can pass them down to my family. I think it's the same with all my guitars, I own them yet they will only be with me a finite time. They will eventually get passed on so I enjoy them, play them, and maintain them with the hope that I can preserve them while they're in my possession.

Fox77
10-11-2012, 06:01 AM
Slightly off topic...

for clarification purposes once and for all...and I have this issue with many on TGP in relation to PRS.

Working your ass off and having the means to purchase fine instruments does not mean one does not have talent.

:box:

There's a flip side to that as well: ever seen a youtube video of someone playing a nice guitar/amp/whatever but who is not good at playing? Immediately the gear police shows up in the comments and insults the poster for not deserving such nice gear for their alleged lack of talent / playing experience. I can only say buy whatever makes you happy and do with it what you like.

Back on topic: discussions like this are fun, but they don't really matter in the grander scheme of things. At the end of your life, you (hopefully) won't look back and think "boy, I wish I had spent more time on internet forums discussing trivia." That's why I don't get that some people get so worked up about stuff like this that they start jabbing at each other on internet forums.

Hans put his thoughts out there. You can agree or you can disagree. But please don't be offended. EDIT: and do not offend. Life's too short.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VcrNn8AiWMc/Tq2CavD4Y1I/AAAAAAAABCs/iv07lVmamsE/s1600/Someone+is+wrong+on+internet.png

:D

docbennett
10-11-2012, 06:57 AM
We aren't talking about whatever was in Marcellus Wallace's suitcase here, just guitars....

BTW.....WTF WAS in Marcellus Wallace's suitcase anyway? Brad will never tell. Nor will Marvin. Winston wasn't there at the time....and Vinnie Vega is dead. Whatever it was....it glowed real nice!

Dirty Bob
10-11-2012, 07:26 AM
There's a flip side to that as well: ever seen a youtube video of someone playing a nice guitar/amp/whatever but who is not good at playing? Immediately the gear police shows up in the comments and insults the poster for not deserving such nice gear for their alleged lack of talent / playing experience. I can only say buy whatever makes you happy and do with it what you like.

Back on topic: discussions like this are fun, but they don't really matter in the grander scheme of things. At the end of your life, you (hopefully) won't look back and think "boy, I wish I had spent more time on internet forums discussing trivia." That's why I don't get that some people get so worked up about stuff like this that they start jabbing at each other on internet forums.

Hans put his thoughts out there. You can agree or you can disagree. But please don't be offended. Life's too short.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VcrNn8AiWMc/Tq2CavD4Y1I/AAAAAAAABCs/iv07lVmamsE/s1600/Someone+is+wrong+on+internet.png

:D

Ah yes ...do what makes you happy...that one goes back to my Hippie snowflake post!

rugerpc
10-11-2012, 07:28 AM
I note sadly that even in this forum some believe it is de rigueur to casually dismiss. After all, it IS the internet you say.

And I ask once again, why is it that people say things to each other on the internet that they would not dare say face to face.

There will be (yet another) service morning the death of civility this morning at 10:00 am Eastern.

rugerpc
10-11-2012, 07:43 AM
BTW.....WTF WAS in Marcellus Wallace's suitcase anyway? Brad will never tell. Nor will Marvin. Winston wasn't there at the time....and Vinnie Vega is dead. Whatever it was....it glowed real nice!

I believe the general consensus is that it was his soul....

Fox77
10-11-2012, 08:17 AM
I note sadly that even in this forum some believe it is de rigueur to casually dismiss. After all, it IS the internet you say.

And I ask once again, why is it that people say things to each other on the internet that they would not dare say face to face.

Spot on.

My post above is incomplete: it should've said "Please don't be offended and do not offend."

Boogie
10-11-2012, 08:18 AM
-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©;25324']when you really own a guitar, it becomes more than a tool; it becomes a diary of a life well-lived.

Anyway... I am an Owner at heart and I often act like a Caretaker.

Though we didn't get to spend much time at the same table at Exp 2012, this is why I enjoyed the opportunities that we did. Kindred spirit kind of thing. From my perspective, you 'get it' in a grounded sort of fashion. And that's a breath of fresh air. Very cool. :cool:

When guests come to my house for the first time, walk thru the front door and see the guitars on the wall in the living room, they usually say something like, "nice collection". I almost take a defensive stance and reply, "it's not really a collection, I'm just a player with a variety of tools". But I treat them like I do all of my stuff...with kid gloves (as much as possible). Not because I'm preserving value or the caretaker tendencies you describe, but because I keep my stuff meticulously - for ME. Accidents happen and I know it, but they still sting. It's like I just hurt one of my best friends. And because there's sentiment attached to most of these guitars, it makes it worse. Recent damage to my Cu24 instantly comes to mind. Yikes...still too fresh of a wound. :( Regardless, I believe my split is 80/20 owner to caretaker and that's because I have one collectable guitar to, one day, sell.

Love for my guitars is an extension of my love for making music. And that's at the core of my being. I only wish everyone could experience that feeling. Maybe by taking the business aspect of guitar ownership out of the equation it could happen for more people.

rugerpc
10-11-2012, 08:19 AM
Very cool! My brother is a drummer and he's always really chill about letting them play it....(which they absolutely love to do) meanwhile I'm always afraid they are gonna hit one of the shells and mess it up!

Fortunately, the way most sets are set up, the actual drum shells don't present much of a target - only the heads and rims. The rims (unless it is a very eclectic set*) are usually made from some hard alloy - chromium cobalt for one - and can take a beating from wooden sticks. The heads are meant to be bashed and are replaceable at any rate, so have at 'em!

I think the only real dangers from non-players is knocking something over or sticking at such an angle as to prematurely dent or break a head.


---------
*I have seen some very high end sets with hardwood rims instead of metal.

rugerpc
10-11-2012, 08:20 AM
Spot on.

My post above is incomplete: it should've said "Please don't be offended and do not offend."

Thanks Alex - I thought I was alone in this this morning...


******

"The Internet as we know it may be in its final stages of existence. Granted, this is a bold statement." from this site... (http://shitmystudentswrite.tumblr.com/)

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
10-11-2012, 11:12 AM
Back on topic: discussions like this are fun, but they don't really matter in the grander scheme of things.

Actually, the whole point of this thread - for me - is that this does matter in the grander scheme of things - especially MY life. That's what this whole thing is about; the things that matter to me vs. the things that really matter - and the wisdom to know the difference.

As Les said... it's philosophical.


At the end of your life, you (hopefully) won't look back and think "boy, I wish I had spent more time on internet forums discussing trivia." That's why I don't get that some people get so worked up about stuff like this that they start jabbing at each other on internet forums.

That's 100% true for me. Arguing the finer points of this philosophy on an internet forum may not really matter - but being understood matters a great deal to me. As I mentioned to a friend on the phone, I don't care if I'm at odds with another person so long as I have accurately represented myself. But... if I am at odds with another person over a misunderstanding, then I am not being impeccable with my word.


Hans put his thoughts out there. You can agree or you can disagree.

And let me add... why are we even here if we cannot share our thoughts?

Fox77
10-11-2012, 12:16 PM
Hans,

I did not mean that your point does not matter. Of course it does to you, that's why you posted in the first place.

What i was referring to is that people read something into another person's post and take offense. And again others react to that and potentially offend others. What i was trying to say was that i think that people shouldn't get too worked up about stuff they read on internet forums. Edit: and should put some thought into their reactions because orhers only have their writren words to go by.

But I'm not a native speaker so often i need lots of words and still don't get my point across.

Cheers

Dirty Bob
10-11-2012, 12:19 PM
-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©;25610'] the things that matter to me vs. the things that really matter - and the wisdom to know the difference.



Ok...now we are really getting somewhere....this is something that I struggle with every day on a wide variety of issues....I will say that my wife and children are a great barometer in this regard...

not necessarily what they say but how my decisions impact them...it could be as simple as the decision to stay in the office a little later working on some trivial task that really could have waited as opposed to getting home and spending those extra moments with them.

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
10-11-2012, 12:27 PM
I will say that my wife and children are a great barometer in this regard...
isn't that the truth?

Next time you think something matters - especially on an internet forum - tell your wife and kids. If they roll their eyes at you, guess what?

;)

sergiodeblanc
10-11-2012, 01:01 PM
This issue matters to you though, and it extends to your family.

If I could get back down to one or two guitars my fiancé would be thrilled that there is no longer a guitar rack next to the bed in our one bedroom apartment. If she could have the closet I am using as a studio she would be thrilled! I see the way she sizes up that room whenever she walks in, and I half-expect she has some closet organizer plans stuffed in her underwear drawer waiting for that day.

Dirty Bob
10-11-2012, 01:36 PM
This issue matters to you though, and it extends to your family.

If I could get back down to one or two guitars my fiancé would be thrilled that there is no longer a guitar rack next to the bed in our one bedroom apartment. If she could have the closet I am using as a studio she would be thrilled! I see the way she sizes up that room whenever she walks in, and I half-expect she has some closet organizer plans stuffed in her underwear drawer waiting for that day.

at the same point...if she took into consideration "what matters to her versus what really matters?" your stuff might have a fair shot of staying there! and the same goes for your serenity!

almost...not quite...but almost a take on Nash Equilibrium...although with my wife and closet space it makes for a rather unstable system!

rugerpc
10-11-2012, 02:26 PM
I see the way she sizes up that room whenever she walks in, and I half-expect she has some closet organizer plans stuffed in her underwear drawer waiting for that day.

I'm mostly finished with the new basement studio - now I actually am going to do the closet organizer as the next project. I write that like I won't benefit, but you know that I will.....

alantig
10-11-2012, 05:13 PM
BTW.....WTF WAS in Marcellus Wallace's suitcase anyway?

My talent.

Must have been, 'cause it ain't here!

Rango
10-11-2012, 09:27 PM
Wow... I go travel for a couple of days and this thread has taken a journey all it's own. Looked like it might take a wrong turn but it wandered and ended up in a happy place. One where we realize we're a bunch of guys that care about our guitars. For some, that care is like a collector caring for a piece of fine art that they have been in-trusted with - others who care, but use for them as tools of their art and like a Craftsman with their tools provide proper care. And many, like myself who are somewhere in the middle. ;)
All valid, All appreciative of the fine instruments that PRS provides us to enjoy! :D


Oh and since we have already referenced it here, I get the same look on my face when I open a PRS case as when Vincent opened THE CASE.

"We Happy!?"



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY2Vx8-yOsQ

ACE
10-12-2012, 01:14 PM
There is a third possibility, Hans: Owners who take care of their stuff! And for themselves, not for the next guy.

In fact, there are probably as many possibilities as there are people.

I have never thought of guitars as an investment. I've never, ever worried about, or even given a moment's thought, to resale value. Resale value is irrelevant to me, despite the fact that I've bought and sold many. I don't plan on selling them, it just seems to happen sometimes.

I take care of my guitars because I enjoy OWNING pristine ones!

And certainly not to build a collection, since as you know, I am not that guy.

Example of my habits:

In the past I had expensive European cars I kept pristine enough to participate in concours events, but I also raced those very same cars on the track. You want to tell me I didn't OWN cars I drove on race tracks?

Come to think of it, my brother won several autocross championships with his immaculate 1973 Lotus JPS that he bought in 1974. It's also been his daily driver to this day! I would say he owns the car after 38 years... But it still looks new. He's his own PTC. :)

Any guitar I have gets played on sessions for my livelihood. All of my studio equipment gets daily use. But I take really, really good care of it. Which is not difficult, and requires no special treatment beyond being a bit careful and fixing anything that goes wrong. I have preamps that look new after 20 years in the rack. Does it matter that they look new? I own those preamps.

Owning a instrument, and keeping that instrument in pristine shape, are NOT mutually exclusive. I OWN my guitars, dagnab it. ;)

You don't own a car any less if you have a dent repaired do you? Or if you wax it? Why would you feel that you have to keep dents and scratches on a guitar when they, too, can easily be repaired? One day your daughter may dent your car. You gonna keep the dent to remind yourself how cute she was at 16?

Nor does one drive a car carelessly in order to "own" it.

The whole categorization of owners vs. caretakers is pointless, since everyone's habits are different. Why the need to generalize?

I completely agree with Markie!

Yeah. I'm an OWNER. And my guitars look freakin' GREAT.

I agree completely. I play my guitars hard, but as Markie pointed out I don't wear anythink that I know is going to cause harm to the guitar. Every now and then my 3 1/2 year old son puts a scratch or mark in one of my guitars and I can deal with that. I am also obsessive about keeping them clean and giving them a full detail with every string change. Finally, I can honestly say that I no longer have an emotional attachment to any guitar I own. They are all on the chopping block if something better comes along.

11top
10-12-2012, 01:21 PM
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn40/JpaulsClass/ArtFieldTrip6.jpg

docbennett
10-12-2012, 02:07 PM
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn40/JpaulsClass/ArtFieldTrip6.jpg

That's one example of a "hanger".

Like figured wood???

pontaeri
10-18-2012, 03:43 AM
Sometimes you don't have to think, just have to do




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8PyTo6NyXA

http://images.global.tilllate.com/images/articles/fckeditor/Image/Players%20Logo%20WEB.jpg

http://stuff.playersclubmusic.com/front_page/pc_logo_color_web.jpg

Rosewoodsteel
10-18-2012, 06:34 PM
I pour beer on my guitars and leave them outside in the rain.

Boogie
10-18-2012, 09:26 PM
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn40/JpaulsClass/ArtFieldTrip6.jpg
Did that one fly out of the Viper? ;) Use a seatbelt, man. Use a stinkin' seatbelt. :p

alantig
10-18-2012, 09:26 PM
I pour beer on my guitars and leave them outside in the rain.

Nice try, but you're not this guy:

http://thm-a01.yimg.com/nimage/9a2991034f9a908e