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View Full Version : Paging Shawn.....or other technical issue experts



AaeCee
10-17-2012, 07:19 PM
There's a know-it-all on TGP declaring that all PRS have compensated nuts, and are thus a hair closer to the bridge. He goes on to pontificate that this is the reason that PRS guitar tone sounds more 'sterile' than others (his words, not mine!).

I say he's just another fool and wrong on all counts, but I'll leave a sliver of plausibility for the nut issue.

Any truth to that one?

PRSHB2
10-17-2012, 07:51 PM
He's a nut that is attempting to compensate.

Lowmach
10-17-2012, 07:59 PM
I have seen the sterile sounding comments on mylespaul as well. Ignorance is bliss......

justmund
10-17-2012, 08:08 PM
He's a nut that is attempting to compensate. haha nice! We went over the compensated nut thing just recently http://prsguitars.com/forum/showthread.php?1848-A-question-re-tuning which has got some great info in there (thanks Les)

Ok not an expert by any means but here's my take, to rebut his statement:

1. PRSes do not have a "sterile" tone. If by sterile he means "rich in harmonic complexity" then maybe... Sterile to me is what a synthesizer sounds like, you know, those horrible power chord samples...
2. I don't think nut compensation has much to do with "tone", we're talking "tone" here, not "tune". "Tone" to me is how one or more strings sounds when put through an amplifier, moving the nut a poofteenth closer to the bridge isn't going to affect that, "tune" and "intonation" yes, "tone" no (but feel free to correct me here guys)
3. He's probably trolling....

Mikegarveyblues
10-17-2012, 08:42 PM
Not sure he's trolling... The poor chap really seems to believe the nonesense he's spewing!

I'm a firm believer that most of the sound we hear comes from the player and how he / she interacts with the guitar. After that comes everything else of which the list is long and complex. There are days my guitars sound sterile and lifeless, however it's not really the guitars it's ME!!! If i'm not in the mood then whatever guitar I play will sound lifeless.

If he doesn't like the tone then fair do's. Can't please everyone and tone is such a subjective thing anyhow. But to come out with the generic 'PRS's sound sterile' is bad enough, but to link it to a compensated nut is downright daft! He provides no real evidence to support this claim other that 'what he's read'. Well, the internet is full of nonesense - particularly when it comes to guitars.

The guys views are built on nothing but hearsay and psychology and not remotely on fact.

As an example... You'll find lots of talk on ground loops inside guitars and using star grounding and a host of other things to rectify it. I've seen this come up a million and one times on various forums.

Ground loops in a guitar is nonesense... A guitars circuit is already a form of star grounding surely?!

Yet, the myth persists.

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
10-17-2012, 09:09 PM
1000 wackos organize a hate parade in he middle of town. No one shows up to watch. No one protests. No one gets arrested. There's no news coverage. No one discusses it on the sidelines. Life just goes on.

They probably won't bother to organize another parade the following year.

Albrecht Smuten
10-18-2012, 03:31 AM
If by sterile he means "rich in harmonic complexity" then maybe...

I once got the impression that my guitar has built-in octaver - on every tone I could clearly hear an octave. When I consulted it, I was told that it's just a damn good guitar. Same experience anyone?



-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©;26322']1000 wackos organize a hate parade in he middle of town. No one shows up to watch. No one protests. No one gets arrested. There's no news coverage. No one discusses it on the sidelines. Life just goes on.

They probably won't bother to organize another parade the following year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtR2m20C2YM

(I know, it's not the same thing)

ExpatGirl
10-18-2012, 03:41 AM
What the hell is nut compensation?

justmund
10-18-2012, 04:12 AM
What the hell is nut compensation?
Follow the link in my above post and all (and more) will be revealed!

rugerpc
10-18-2012, 09:34 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtR2m20C2YM


I was IN that parade this year wearing my Über Ninja outfit - even the other Ninjas didn't see me, though I saw them!

:creep:

edit:

I just read the thread in question on TGP. I almost busted a gut laughing...

Albrecht Smuten
10-19-2012, 08:09 AM
I was IN that parade this year wearing my Über Ninja outfit - even the other Ninjas didn't see me, though I saw them!

I'm practising Super-stealth for the next year. It's basically attending the parade without leaving one's desktop.

garrett
10-19-2012, 03:34 PM
The position of the nut IS compensated: Linky (http://books.google.com/books?id=DBfDN0OeJj0C&pg=PR64&lpg=PR64&dq=prs+guitars+compensated+nut&source=bl&ots=HaIOfPOX8R&sig=e9rQWr7YuJoepS4WQWsCbQI2Kd0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SriBULi0PIKi8AToroCoAw&ved=0CFkQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=prs%20guitars%20compensated%20nut&f=false)

However, I have never understood this claim that PRS guitars sound sterile.

fatherjacques
10-20-2012, 09:50 AM
Sterile!! For the fun of it I made a quick compaison track with my R8 VS my ME QUATRO. You know what ? I SOLD my R8

http://soundcloud.com/fatherjacques/paul-reed-smith-quatro-trem-vs

rugerpc
10-20-2012, 08:46 PM
Yeah.... The word 'sterile' was bandied about in the TGP thread.

And I'm thinking, the music of RUSH, Heart, Grissom.... 'STERILE'???? That would be one of the last words that leapt to mind...

I have just one word to dispel the 'sterile' descriptive myth.... SANTANA!

THAT tone is ANYTHING but sterile!

Drew
10-21-2012, 07:19 AM
I do not believe that PRS use true compensated nuts. On the PRS guitars I owned (sadly no more but a CU24 is in my future after we move across country) I do not remember it having the nut that my Ernie Ball guitar has....where each string has a slightly difference pinch point......identical to how a bridge is set up for intonation but much slighter differences in the pinch point locations. If I am understanding this correctly, PRS moves the entire nut a hair closer to fret #1 but the pinch point locations of the strings are still in-line with one another. That is a form of intonation compensation but you can't consider that a true compensated nut.

Serious Poo
10-21-2012, 10:36 AM
There are many forms of compensating for certain notes going sharp in the lower frets of a guitar. For example, here's the nut on my Akkerman:

http://imageshack.us/a/img248/9311/framusakkermanzerofret.jpg

Jhenri
10-21-2012, 08:10 PM
That's a zero fret right?

Serious Poo
10-21-2012, 08:55 PM
That's a zero fret right?

Yep. That guitar has all sorts of cool, funky features on it.

garrett
10-22-2012, 11:55 AM
I do not believe that PRS use true compensated nuts. On the PRS guitars I owned (sadly no more but a CU24 is in my future after we move across country) I do not remember it having the nut that my Ernie Ball guitar has....where each string has a slightly difference pinch point......identical to how a bridge is set up for intonation but much slighter differences in the pinch point locations. If I am understanding this correctly, PRS moves the entire nut a hair closer to fret #1 but the pinch point locations of the strings are still in-line with one another. That is a form of intonation compensation but you can't consider that a true compensated nut.

The nut ITSELF is not compensated (a la Earvana), but the POSITION of the nut relative to the first fret is.

Audiowonderland
10-25-2012, 12:12 PM
haha nice! We went over the compensated nut thing just recently http://prsguitars.com/forum/showthread.php?1848-A-question-re-tuning which has got some great info in there (thanks Les)

Ok not an expert by any means but here's my take, to rebut his statement:

1. PRSes do not have a "sterile" tone. If by sterile he means "rich in harmonic complexity" then maybe... Sterile to me is what a synthesizer sounds like, you know, those horrible power chord samples...
2. I don't think nut compensation has much to do with "tone", we're talking "tone" here, not "tune". "Tone" to me is how one or more strings sounds when put through an amplifier, moving the nut a poofteenth closer to the bridge isn't going to affect that, "tune" and "intonation" yes, "tone" no (but feel free to correct me here guys)
3. He's probably trolling....

Well, if the compensation results in a more true intonation up and down the neck the reduction in disonance could potentially be heard as "sterile" if those minor disonances are perceived as "complexity". Their removal would make the sound more "sterile". To me its just the opposite. As intonation issues are removed the sound just gets bigger

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
10-25-2012, 12:21 PM
Well, if the compensation results in a more true intonation up and down the neck the reduction in disonance could potentially be heard as "sterile" if those minor disonances are perceived as "complexity". Their removal would make the sound more "sterile". To me its just the opposite. As intonation issues are removed the sound just gets bigger

I had a 12-string acoustic that got notably louder (and more rich) when it was perfectly in tune.

docbennett
10-25-2012, 01:03 PM
-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©;27031']I had a 12-string acoustic that got notably louder (and more rich) when it was perfectly in tune.

Most parsimonious explanation: That's because when it wasn't in tune, you concealed the tone from others and played it very quietly, and when it was perfectly in tune you PLAYED it louder. :D

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
10-25-2012, 01:16 PM
I only play loud for Markie and Steve.

justmund
10-25-2012, 04:29 PM
Well, if the compensation results in a more true intonation up and down the neck the reduction in disonance could potentially be heard as "sterile" if those minor disonances are perceived as "complexity". Their removal would make the sound more "sterile". To me its just the opposite. As intonation issues are removed the sound just gets bigger
I think you missed my point mate, the OP made reference to the term "tone" not "sound". I actually find it harder to hear a guitars "tone" when a 6-string chord is fretted, and easiest when one note is being played at a time. To me, a lot of things affect "tone", guitar wood, guitar components, strings, pickup windings, pickup magnets, the lead, the amp, the players fingers, whether or not the luthier had his mojo working that day or not etc (you get the point). Let me put it this way, ever heard someone do a solo and think "wow, nice tone!"...?

yankeebulldog
10-25-2012, 07:55 PM
So, maybe I'm missing something here, but even if the nut was closer to the first fret, wouldn't it only affect the intonation of open strings? That's something I've never understood about the Earvana or Buzz F systems.

rschleicher
10-26-2012, 05:59 PM
A couple of comments:

Putting the nut (as a whole) just very slightly closer to the 1st fret than the pure math would indicate, does help with intonation. It's easier to visualize this if you don't think of it as the nut being moved closer, but rather that the nut is where it's supposed to be, and ALL of the frets are moved just slightly closer to the nut. (Of course, the two are really the same...) The open string is tuned correctly (by definition). Then, by having ALL of the frets moved slightly closer to the nut than the pure math would indicate, the pressure applied on the string to fret any of the fretted notes is compensated for (on average).

In a true compensated nut, the adjustment is very slightly different for the different strings, since the different strings react slightly differently to the pressure of being fretted. All of this is a compromise, based on the the string set that's used.

The idea of a zero fret is that at separates the dual purposes of the nut into two pieces - string separation and spacing (still done by the nut), and the establishment of the open-string length (by the zero-fret). With a zero-fret, nut wear, or un-careful nut-filing, doesn't throw off the intonation. (With a regular nut, if you file it improperly, you can throw off the actual point of contact of the string in the nut-slot.) The down-side of a zero-fret is that you can't really adjust the string height at the nut-end, at least not separately for the different strings. And of course you can wear little grooves in the zero-fret, over time, just like nut slots can be worn down.

Locking nuts help preserve tune with trem-equipped guitars. PRS takes the different approach of trying to minimize friction at the nut, and having locking tuners. And the PRS headstock is designed so that all of the strings are fairly close to a straight pull over the nut, also to avoid friction and binding.

captdg
10-27-2012, 09:25 AM
Is he sure that he is not playing his "Esteban" guitar from the infomercial? . They can sound sterile.

sleary
10-27-2012, 03:12 PM
Wow guess I'm wrong for wanting to get rid of my Sg to help fund my prs . 33 years of playing gone down the tube because somebody at Mlp says I'm wrong. Going to sell all my gear and take up knitting lol

P.s...dude is just narrow minded..

andy474x
10-27-2012, 10:36 PM
I don't know anything about this compensated nut business... For all I know PRS nuts may be compensated, but I'll take a 5% improvement in intonation over a 5% improvement in tone any day. Nothing makes a guitar sound like crap more than poor intonation. That being said, I don't hear anything hurting the tone of any PRS I've heard!