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captdg
11-01-2012, 07:48 PM
Whats some easy and fast rules for this?..I m not a musicologist..Thanks

Mikegarveyblues
11-01-2012, 08:02 PM
Tab is a visual representation of a guitars fretboard.

You'll have the 6 linhes representing the 6 strings and the numbers on the lines represent the frets. Basically tells you where to put your fingers as well as other usefull information. Doesn't help you with timing.

With Staff or Stave notation (The Treble Clef just gives you the pitch of the notes within a range) you have the notes written out on 5 lines. Each line represents a note, say E,G,B,D,F and the space between also represents a note F,A,C,E. The different types of notes indicate the timing.

There's a lot more to it than that, but that's the difference at a basic level.

Tab is usefull to a guitarist as you have the exact same note appearing multiple times on the fretboard. YOu can also fit in more 'instruction' with tab. Personally, I like tab and Staff combined, along with my ears. I can't read music (Hey, i'm a guitarist!!!) but I do like conventional notation to work out the timing.

rugerpc
11-01-2012, 09:35 PM
Another important difference is that standard musical notation (the bass and treble clefts) do not tell you where on the guitar to play an enharminic note.

Take the note sounded by the open 5th string, A in standard tuning. That same A can be played on the 6th string at the 5th fret. It is the same A, same pitch, but a different timbre. That makes tab notation slightly more useful for relaying where on the neck of a guitar a familiar riff is played.

But tab's real drawback is the almost complete lack of timing notation.

alantig
11-02-2012, 12:11 AM
On the plus side, tab (as has been noted) is very good for telling you how to play something. On the minus, tab is very good for telling you how to play something. It doesn't leave you much room for determining how you might want to voice something. But if you're trying to cop what someone else did, it's excellent for showing that. And it also may show you a way to voice something that you might not have considered. Tab, to my mind, is much easier to pick up quickly - it's simply translating the diagram to the fretboard.

Standard notation, though, is almost a must if you want to communicate to other musicians. "A-flat" means something to a keyboard player - "second string, ninth fret" doesn't.

There's definitely a place for both, though.

Albrecht Smuten
11-02-2012, 06:15 AM
A little derail... because I forgot classic notation and never learned tabs (I have a killer hearing and memory :D ), I developed my own system of notation, which is far from perfect, but usually works (it's basically a table with 8 columns, saying "one-two-three-four" in first row, 2 columns for each beat, two notes per column).
Problem starts, when you have 3/4 accents in a 4/4 song, and the system completely fails when you have to write down something more complex, like HC/djent patterns (unreadable/unwritable).

When it comes to non-regular complex patterns that spread over several bars, it seems very useful just to draw it on a square paper - full squares being notes and clear squares being pauses.

Message is: Be creative. You may know tabs or classic notation, still you may have to communicate with those who don't ;)

docbennett
11-02-2012, 08:12 AM
Tab is great for people like me who cannot read music. Using tabs instantly teaches you how to play a particular segment. Once you learn the basic notes, you can figure out the subtleties (like timing) much easier than learning everything from scratch. Tabs give players like me the ability to learn virtually any song. They can't help with technique...but they can eliminate the confusion as to "what note, where".

I learned how to read music using a staff and traditional notation in grade school when playing the flutophone. I forgot it faster than I had learned it by the time I reached 6th grade. :-)

Em7
11-02-2012, 10:20 AM
On the plus side, tab (as has been noted) is very good for telling you how to play something. On the minus, tab is very good for telling you how to play something. It doesn't leave you much room for determining how you might want to voice something. But if you're trying to cop what someone else did, it's excellent for showing that. And it also may show you a way to voice something that you might not have considered. Tab, to my mind, is much easier to pick up quickly - it's simply translating the diagram to the fretboard.

Standard notation, though, is almost a must if you want to communicate to other musicians. "A-flat" means something to a keyboard player - "second string, ninth fret" doesn't.

There's definitely a place for both, though.

Concur! I like to have both notations on a page because it is brain dead simple to determine the key signature from standard notation. For key signatures with sharps, the key is a half step about the last sharp. For example, the most common key signature in rock music is the key of G major/E minor. In standard notation, the key signature for G major/E minor is written as one sharp (F#) to the right of the treble clef (G is a half step above F#). For key signatures with flats, we remove the last flat. The key signature is then given by the rightmost flat. The only key with flats that deviates from this rule is the key of F major/D minor. It only has one flat. The only key signature with no sharps or flats is the key of C major/A minor (C major/A minor is all white keys on a piano).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/Circle_of_fifths_deluxe_4.svg/400px-Circle_of_fifths_deluxe_4.svg.png

rugerpc
11-02-2012, 11:18 AM
Missing from the above chart - the key of D♭ is also the same enharmonically as C #,
and the key of B sounds the same as C♭.

If a piece of music is new to a guitar player, having both standard notation and tablature solves a lot of problems. You get both the correct notes in the correct octave with their timing and rests (from the standard notation) and the solution as to which strings to use and where to play them on the neck (from the tablature).

Some classical standard notation music even tells you which fingers to use when fretting notes.

rugerpc
11-02-2012, 11:20 AM
A little derail... because I forgot classic notation and never learned tabs (I have a killer hearing and memory :D ), I developed my own system of notation, which is far from perfect, but usually works (it's basically a table with 8 columns, saying "one-two-three-four" in first row, 2 columns for each beat, two notes per column).
Problem starts, when you have 3/4 accents in a 4/4 song, and the system completely fails when you have to write down something more complex, like HC/djent patterns (unreadable/unwritable).

When it comes to non-regular complex patterns that spread over several bars, it seems very useful just to draw it on a square paper - full squares being notes and clear squares being pauses.

Message is: Be creative. You may know tabs or classic notation, still you may have to communicate with those who don't ;)

I think you need to show us an example of your notation - it sounds interesting.

Albrecht Smuten
11-02-2012, 11:37 AM
I think you need to show us an example of your notation - it sounds interesting.

And let you know how lame it really is? No way! ;)

Em7
11-02-2012, 12:16 PM
Missing from the above chart - the key of D♭ is also the same enharmonically as C #,
and the key of B sounds the same as C♭.


The enharmonic key names are missing, but both key signatures are notated on the Circle of Fifths diagram show above. The key signature for C# is located below the key signature for Db, and the key signature for Cb is located below the key signature for B.

rugerpc
11-02-2012, 01:44 PM
The enharmonic key names are missing, but both key signatures are notated on the Circle of Fifths diagram show above. The key signature for C# is located below the key signature for Db, and the key signature for Cb is located below the key signature for B.

Yup. Saw those. I was just fleshing out the missing names.


And let you know how lame it really is? No way! ;)

C'mon. It sounds very graphic, intuitive and different. It might be just what someone who is struggling with notation on the Forum needs. You never know - it might turn into a useful shorthand for even seasoned players.

Mikegarveyblues
11-02-2012, 04:11 PM
Yep, come on Albrecht... You've piqued my interest!

captdg
11-02-2012, 08:12 PM
okay....wow! I played trumpet in college..Go USM!....But anyway, uhhh when I wanna play an "E" on sheet music do I do an open "E" or fret it? Em7 blew me away!!!!!!!!!!!!!

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T !
11-02-2012, 09:37 PM
But anyway, uhhh when I wanna play an "E" on sheet music do I do an open "E" or fret it?

http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/da/25/148623e9b90f0a7e9d9a6a.L._V178022809_SX200_.jpg

LearnedHand
11-02-2012, 09:57 PM
Tab is a visual representation of a guitars fretboard.

You'll have the 6 linhes representing the 6 strings and the numbers on the lines represent the frets. Basically tells you where to put your fingers as well as other usefull information. Doesn't help you with timing.

With Staff or Stave notation (The Treble Clef just gives you the pitch of the notes within a range) you have the notes written out on 5 lines. Each line represents a note, say E,G,B,D,F and the space between also represents a note F,A,C,E. The different types of notes indicate the timing.

There's a lot more to it than that, but that's the difference at a basic level.

Tab is usefull to a guitarist as you have the exact same note appearing multiple times on the fretboard. YOu can also fit in more 'instruction' with tab. Personally, I like tab and Staff combined, along with my ears. I can't read music (Hey, i'm a guitarist!!!) but I do like conventional notation to work out the timing.


On the plus side, tab (as has been noted) is very good for telling you how to play something. On the minus, tab is very good for telling you how to play something. It doesn't leave you much room for determining how you might want to voice something. But if you're trying to cop what someone else did, it's excellent for showing that. And it also may show you a way to voice something that you might not have considered. Tab, to my mind, is much easier to pick up quickly - it's simply translating the diagram to the fretboard.

Standard notation, though, is almost a must if you want to communicate to other musicians. "A-flat" means something to a keyboard player - "second string, ninth fret" doesn't.

There's definitely a place for both, though.


Concur! I like to have both notations on a page because it is brain dead simple to determine the key signature from standard notation. For key signatures with sharps, the key is a half step about the last sharp. For example, the most common key signature in rock music is the key of G major/E minor. In standard notation, the key signature for G major/E minor is written as one sharp (F#) to the right of the treble clef (G is a half step above F#). For key signatures with flats, we remove the last flat. The key signature is then given by the rightmost flat. The only key with flats that deviates from this rule is the key of F major/D minor. It only has one flat. The only key signature with no sharps or flats is the key of C major/A minor (C major/A minor is all white keys on a piano).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/Circle_of_fifths_deluxe_4.svg/400px-Circle_of_fifths_deluxe_4.svg.png

I agree with all. A gigging guitarist needs a working understanding of all these tools/means of communication.

Albrecht Smuten
11-03-2012, 05:43 AM
C'mon. It sounds very graphic, intuitive and different. It might be just what someone who is struggling with notation on the Forum needs. You never know - it might turn into a useful shorthand for even seasoned players.

Yep, come on Albrecht... You've piqued my interest!

Ok, I already started making fool of myself, so why not finish the job...

Theme 1 is random practice, 3/4 pattern in 4/4 song, Jethro Tull ripoff is loosely based on a particular pattern from "Hunting girl" song.
(I deliberately left the beats and half beats in czech to explain that every half beat is differentiated from others, unlike "1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and"... I'm grateful for that, it's pretty handy when talking about particular half-beats)

The square paper notation ended up looking pretty similar to classic notation, only it's strictly geometrical/regular, whatever.

http://i48.tinypic.com/28u7537.jpg

Albrecht Smuten
11-03-2012, 07:13 AM
Thinking outside the box, if the notation system is ever about to develop, the use of COLORS might actually come in handy to differentiate stuff (as we are no longer limited to a quill and black ink)...

rugerpc
11-03-2012, 09:31 AM
okay....wow! I played trumpet in college..Go USM!....But anyway, uhhh when I wanna play an "E" on sheet music do I do an open "E" or fret it? Em7 blew me away!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It all depends upon which "E" you are trying to play from the sheet music. Have a look at this diagram.

C scale in standard notation and in tab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diatonic_scale_on_C_tablature_clef.png)

The third note is an E - a very specific E - the E just above middle C on the piano. On a guitar in standard tuning, that E can be sounded by playing the 4th string at the second fret as shown in the tab.

But there are 2 other places on the guitar to play the same E.
5th string 7th fret
6th string 12th fret

The 6th string open is an E too, but it is an octave lower - the E below middle C on the piano.

Have a look at this link for a fairly good tutorial on how standard notation and tab relate:

reading notation and tablature (http://www.guitarlessonworld.com/lessons/reading-notation-and-tablature.htm)

Mikegarveyblues
11-03-2012, 01:34 PM
Ok, I already started making fool of myself, so why not finish the job...

Theme 1 is random practice, 3/4 pattern in 4/4 song, Jethro Tull ripoff is loosely based on a particular pattern from "Hunting girl" song.
(I deliberately left the beats and half beats in czech to explain that every half beat is differentiated from others, unlike "1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and"... I'm grateful for that, it's pretty handy when talking about particular half-beats)

The square paper notation ended up looking pretty similar to classic notation, only it's strictly geometrical/regular, whatever.

http://i48.tinypic.com/28u7537.jpg

If it works then that's all that matters!

Not found myself in a situation where i've had to write out standard notation for anyone - thankfully! - but i've done a version of tab where i've had to write the duration of the note under the number on the tab line. Kind of worked.

Em7
11-03-2012, 04:04 PM
The third note is an E - a very specific E - the E just above middle C on the piano. On a guitar in standard tuning, that E can be sounded by playing the 4th string at the second fret as shown in the tab.



Actually, the information given on the linked page is wrong. Middle C on a piano has a frequency of approximately 262 Hertz. Low E on a guitar has a frequency of approximately 82 Hertz. The E note one octave above it that resides on the second fret of the D string is approximately 163 Hertz. Middle C on a guitar actually resides on the 20th fret of the low E string, 15th fret of the A string, 10th fret of the D string, 5th fret of the G string, and the 1st fret of the B string. 

 The E on the first line of standard notation is actually the same frequency as the open high E string.


One can now clearly see why tablature is the preferred notation for guitar. We like to think of tab as being this hip thing that we developed for guitar. However, its use dates back to the Middle Ages. As Mikegarveyblues mentioned, one of tab's biggest weaknesses is that it does not encode timing. 






rugerpc
11-03-2012, 05:59 PM
Em7 is correct. I misled.

The treble clef is used for guitar for convenience and is a compromise. It allows simultaneous display of notes for singing and guitar notes for playing on the same staff.

Have a look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies) for how the open strings of guitar relate to the piano.

But, as Em7 begins to point out, there is a problem. Middle C on the treble clef is not middle C when played on guitar.

This is due to the voicing of the guitar - when playing the notes as shown on sheet music, the notes on the guitar actually sound an octave lower. That is, the C on the first ledger line below the staff is not middle C (C4 at approx 262 Hz) but is in reality the C an octave lower, C3 at approx 131 Hz. True Middle C is on the 20th fret of the low E string, 15th fret of the A string, 10th fret of the D string, 5th fret of the G string, and the 1st fret of the B string as Em7 writes. But because of the notation octave shift in sheet music for guitar, we actually play the C on the third fret of the A string when we see middle C on guitar sheet music.

Damn confusing isn't it?

The low E string is written as the space below the third ledger line below the staff in sheet music, but in actual grand staff notation it is on the first ledger line below the bass clef. If it were to be written using the treble clef and ledger lines it would be on the 7th ledger line below the staff. In fact, most of the notes on the lowest 3 strings are actually in the bass clef, and thus would require ledger lines below the treble clef to accurately represent.

To be completely accurate, guitar music should be written using the grand staff or the real number of ledger lines below the treble clef. But since that would take over twice as much room in the case of the grand staff and a crazy, unreadable amount of lower ledger lines for the treble clef alone, we have the compromise notation.

Guitar is not the only instrument with compromises in notation. Many instruments who's natural ranges fall outside of (or between) the grand staff are routinely written using alternate clefs.

Have a look at these:
http://musicnotation.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clef

captdg
11-04-2012, 01:24 PM
Okay...Time Signatures are very imporant when sight reading..When I first started to play I wanted to learn the solo on "Two Tickets to Paradise" which I believe the time signature changes from 3/4 to 4/4 to like..any way it wasnt a Rush tune that the time sig goes to cut time and 12/8 and all that. But nevermind that I could find many notes for the solo and the "Timbre" was not right..Ill keep re-reading the above posts..I have to learn things by doing them..man..Thanks fellas!



Lots of intellect here.on this board.. I learned calculus and physical chemisty mainly by gettin foreign students dates with heavy co-eds.Didnt have money to pay a tutor.......... I am implying nothing..HA!

captdg
11-04-2012, 01:40 PM
C scale in standard notation and in tab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diatonic_scale_on_C_tablature_clef.png)

That makes sense

captdg
11-04-2012, 01:47 PM
okay.. what is the difference " B" string second fret and "d " string 11th fret. I can tell the difference. but its the same note, right?

rugerpc
11-04-2012, 03:21 PM
okay.. what is the difference " B" string second fret and "d " string 11th fret. I can tell the difference. but its the same note, right?

That would be the B string 2nd fret and D string 10th fret for the same note. As Em7 pointed out - they are both "Middle C" (C4).

They are the same pitch but have different musical timbres (http://cnx.org/content/m11059/latest/).

On guitar sheet music it would be the C that is the third space up in the staff on the treble clef. On piano sheet music it would be the C on the first ledger line below the staff.

captdg
11-04-2012, 04:41 PM
That would be the B string 2nd fret and D string 10th fret for the same note. As Em7 pointed out - they are both "Middle C" (C4).

They are the same pitch but have different musical timbres (http://cnx.org/content/m11059/latest/).

On guitar sheet music it would be the C that is the third space up in the staff on the treble clef. On piano sheet music it would be the C on the first ledger line below the staff.

Okay , Ruger, is there a program or app that I can put in a solo and it will put me on the fretboard exactly where I wanna be? string bending and all? I know it takes the fun outta it but im 49! hey thanks for the help

rugerpc
11-04-2012, 06:49 PM
Okay , Ruger, is there a program or app that I can put in a solo and it will put me on the fretboard exactly where I wanna be? string bending and all? I know it takes the fun outta it but im 49! hey thanks for the help

Most of the published sheet music that includes TAB for Rock and Pop music will put you in the right spot on the fretboard.

Albrecht Smuten
11-05-2012, 03:06 AM
If it works then that's all that matters!

Not found myself in a situation where i've had to write out standard notation for anyone - thankfully! - but i've done a version of tab where i've had to write the duration of the note under the number on the tab line. Kind of worked.

Few years ago I had to write down some stuff for a violin player in standard notation and it was a nightmare (and I screwed it up of course). My table notation is mainly used as a guideline for bass (root notes and their timing, rest is up to the player).

hippietim
11-06-2012, 11:40 AM
Tab is for guitar players. The treble clef is for musicians.

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T !
11-06-2012, 12:27 PM
Tab is for guitar players. The treble clef is for musicians.


:rofl:

captdg
11-06-2012, 04:24 PM
Tab is for guitar players. The treble clef is for musicians.


Now ..I unnerstand.. Heh!

Mikegarveyblues
11-06-2012, 04:42 PM
Yes, but standard notation only has 5 lines. TAB has six lines which is one louder. You messing around with only 5 lines on a stave where do you go?

captdg
11-06-2012, 08:19 PM
But cant one add addional lines as needed even in treble clef? like for use on octaves? What am I missing here?

Mikegarveyblues
11-06-2012, 08:54 PM
But cant one add addional lines as needed even in treble clef? like for use on octaves? What am I missing here?

Lines are added all the time, though it's usually just for the notes that need it. Called Ledger lines. Problem with just having a load of lines to encompass all the ranges is that it takes up a lot of room and gets more complex. I've seen 8va or 8vb (?) written in standard notation which is an indication to play an ocatve below the written pitch.

t.shamone
11-06-2012, 09:02 PM
But cant one add addional lines as needed even in treble clef? like for use on octaves? What am I missing here?

You add ledger lines above and below the staff. You can think of them as extensions of the original staff.
If they get too out of hand, then the 8va (octave higher) type symbols are used.

Tab is a weak compromise to notation, no other musicians except guitar and bass players can understand it.

You decide where to play the notes. If it's difficult or doesn't sound right, play it somewhere else.
That is one of the unique aspects of stringed instruments, the ability to play the same note in multiple locations.
I can do that with my sax also, but only certain notes have multiple fingerings.

As far as the fingering on classical music, that is just editors markings/suggestions. Whoever transcribed the piece is suggesting the fingerings.
When playing, I find it easier to ignore these fingerings.
I will look at them if I have difficulty with a passage or feel that I am not playing smoothly .

alantig
11-06-2012, 11:09 PM
Yes, but standard notation only has 5 lines. TAB has six lines which is one louder. You messing around with only 5 lines on a stave where do you go?

Keef tabs only have five lines.

But Dave Weiner tabs have seven lines, which is even one more louder!

Albrecht Smuten
11-07-2012, 04:41 AM
But Dave Weiner tabs have seven lines, which is even one more louder!

I was gonna write something like that :) Tosin Abbasi probably has 8 lines ;)

Mikegarveyblues
11-07-2012, 11:53 AM
Keef tabs only have five lines.

But Dave Weiner tabs have seven lines, which is even one more louder!

This is a good point and one I hadn't considered.

Some of the best riffs known to man may only need two or three... I'm gonna have to work on this theory! ;)

In all seriousness to the OP...

Most sheet music you buy for guitar will be a mixture of TAB and standard notation. As you've seen from all the responses there are clear differences between the two types of notation, but when it comes to guitar, both have their pros and cons.

Plenty of well known guitarists have got by without knowing either but that doesn'r mean they haven't devised some way to communicate their ideas.

captdg
11-07-2012, 06:25 PM
Guess ill need to start with a lute and work my way from there.