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Jester
11-16-2012, 12:05 AM
I have two complaints about this forum. #1. We badly need a classified section for selling used guitars. Most of the heavy users of guitar forums are guitaraholics. We buy and sell guitars often. New incoming often means one or several outgoing. When choosing a forum to call home, it is a HUGE attraction if it has a classified section. I do not believe this forum will achieve critical mass and thrive without one.

Yes, I know PRS is in the business of selling NEW guitars. However, the success of the forum will benefit PRS by increasing interest and enthusiasm in the brand. Also, I do not think used guitar sales will take away from new guitar sales. Let's face it, used PRS are MUCH less expensive than new PRS. It is not the same market. A guy who wants a new one is going to buy a new one because it is pristine, it may be the newest hot thing, he has a huge selection to get exactly the right color and options her wants and there is virtually no fraud risk with dealers. A guy who wants to save money on a used one is going to get a used one; he is not going to give up and pay an extra 50% for a new one.

I will also say a word about liability. If you are worried about the company getting pulled into a dispute on a sale gone bad, I would simply say put a BIG HONKING DISCLAIMER IN BOLD TYPE ALL CAPS IN HUGE FONT at the top of the classified section and each thread therein making clear that the company is in no way involved and is not policing the section.

Anyone else with me?

I'll post #2 in a few days.

Twinfan
11-16-2012, 02:52 AM
I agree with you, but I can't see it happening.

james
11-16-2012, 07:17 AM
I have two complaints about this forum. #1. We badly need a classified section for selling used guitars. Most of the heavy users of guitar forums are guitaraholics. We buy and sell guitars often. New incoming often means one or several outgoing. When choosing a forum to call home, it is a HUGE attraction if it has a classified section. I do not believe this forum will achieve critical mass and thrive without one.

Jester, thanks for the feedback.

On your last point in bold: You may be correct on that. Please understand, critical mass is not our goal here. Of course, we do realize that people like buying and selling guitars on forums. It's fun, but this is not the spot for it. Fortunately, between eBay, The Gear Page, Vintage Rocker and other forums, I feel there are sufficient number of outlets for the used PRS market.

I think many people who have signed up here have already demonstrated that quality content can be generated without the relying on the central hub of a marketplace as a catalyst.

Jester
11-16-2012, 08:33 AM
On your last point in bold: Please understand, critical mass is not our goal here.

I'm sorry to hear that.

If I may ask, what is the goal here?

docbennett
11-16-2012, 08:46 AM
I made a similar point in the past, as I agree with you 100%. I took it to a higher level...I recommended that PRS set up a "used PRS" "profit center" for the company itself. They would act as the intermediary, buying and selling used PRS...or allowing them to be used as trade bait once a dealer agreed to the piece as a trade-in and accepted the "used price".
Clearly this is not a concept that the PRS company is comfortable with...for a variety of business reasons that are obvious to many. They clearly don't want to compete with themselves in the used market arena.
But...if it means anything...I would LOVE to see PRS take on the "used market" and somehow fold it into their overall company business plan.

So....what was your 2nd complaint??? :top:

aristotle
11-16-2012, 09:02 AM
I visit this forum mainly because people from the company participate. It implies at least a bit more accuracy with regards to information and news. Seems to me that this forum is a subset of others anyway, and it seems that adverts here would be redundant. Then again, I've never actually sold a guitar, so what do I know?

Besides, I wouldn't allow my company to have a forum where people sold used versions of my products, and it wouldn't have anything to do with detracting from my new sales. Sooner or later, somebody will get ripped off, and I won't have any control over it. Sure, people are warned up front, but if they get ripped off on my company sanctioned site, they'll remember it.

james
11-16-2012, 09:25 AM
If I may ask, what is the goal here?

I think the goal is the same as any manufacturer's self-hosted forum: to provide a place for people to discuss our products and things related to our products (Fender and Orange come to mind, off the top of my head). I like how Shawn can chime in with some content even I haven't seen (and I work down the hall from him). We're going to make an effort to do even more of that here.

My other goal for the forum is to be the first place we announce anything new and can answer questions on it. If I have new info on a new product we're coming out with, or an event that's taking place somewhere, this is the first place I'll post it.

Finally, I want to hear what Goldtop is listening to today.

james
11-16-2012, 09:26 AM
I visit this forum mainly because people from the company participate. It implies at least a bit more accuracy with regards to information and news.

That's funny. I check with you guys to make sure I didn't make a spec error or typo on the website.

themike
11-16-2012, 09:26 AM
edit: Nevermind. Not worth it being twisted haha

AP515
11-16-2012, 10:06 AM
I may be the minority, but I like that we don't have a for sale section. I come here for the reasons james stated. I like hearing from the company. Some of the things you don't get at the other PRS forums cuz they just don't kow what goes on inside. But I can see a day when PRS's stiffest competition is there own used guitars. When a used PRS is recognized as better than a new Gibson or Fender, (because they are), and people are through with the historical thing and are going for the best player. It may be hard for PRS to get the buyer to pay the premium for a new one when the used one KILLS!

JMintzer
11-16-2012, 03:05 PM
I come here for the chicks...

clcwarlock
11-16-2012, 03:37 PM
I think that Seymour Duncan has the right idea with their forum site. They are not really concerned about people talking about other pickups or selling other pickups. The selling section has huge amounts of people in it daily. They simply keep a list of bad sellers to avoid. The SD fourm kind of reminds me how Amazon gives you prices from other companies and at first you would think that they are killing their own business but in reality they just got bigger from it. The cool thing is that MJ (The famous pickup winder) is in the forum all the time for questions. It doesnt really bother me that much that there is no selling section here but it just seems to me that this is an old way of thinking in business like fender etc. PRS guitars can hang with and exceed any other guitar and I think most people on this forum already know it but there are still people out there that dont. If there were 30,000 people visiting your site daily I am pretty sure that some new PRS guitar would be flying off the shelves.

Danerada
11-16-2012, 03:48 PM
I am with AP....

james
11-16-2012, 04:24 PM
cool...thanks for the feedback guys. gonna lock the thread because we're not taking a vote on this at the moment. but rest assured, we're aware that many would like a classified section!

james
11-17-2012, 08:45 AM
Thread re-opened by request.

Please feel free to add anything you'd like to the thread. We're not going to be doing a classified section anytime in the foreseeable future, but talking about it is fine by me!

markie
11-17-2012, 08:53 AM
I have some "Waterpump" Impellers for sale.............................................. . NEW!


:biggrin:

docbennett
11-17-2012, 09:05 AM
I have some "Waterpump" Impellers for sale.............................................. . NEW!


:biggrin:



https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/P0fuG6bX18hgB376fGIYQsLYCv6Gvn6Ky72M6I8sfPpewn5Da1 piJu_DiT4V5YquRMoozpftAd4slY9m5nV6Im2mHOiUd4vytlGp h1QJB2i_Ua-T2ZJpfmmcDwtazOVcwp9ZYxyA9Jx2BcZ--ihm74smY2FaUJ1j_d29xGeo40Z0A2G8q0hUSzqc_bC2u4b0imE _8ggKfrYzo7up0kUCd6Z7b_lQWI5aQlnz5X03qSfZ=s220-c

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/public/8KQ97AArIbvBFs1j9IMYi1sjueGAclsvweFje-WVPm53uSJeqTt9ubQnpIi5MDcx2w3rLMbNGIEdLtoMKHpNSJbj Su6gsZvmHAT_z5Tt7xBa5EKlkf0PbG2ZeXZ23thx_G-fKb1dDtw7ojZ3pw1Nv84mMEhQM3kcjWWsm2n4m3TI=s220-c

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/mTE-KYYkJm8XfD2s8xNG5otB3f80WW5VdtiMMM5pkk1s2VU8jeGGjo S6QfkG24v98Aj7_ZzS4oAWsP8mQbTZUotBg6bozsCMZW22cCx-aaqhO5AURy5wsMVgqfWsXe1xmx6H4bdV6YvaumATNHpzJzmeJt Kw-W3jnxSYpjc=s220-c

11top
11-17-2012, 09:54 AM
I have some "Waterpump" Impellers for sale.............................................. . NEW!


:biggrin:

Do you have any with 1 piece, spalted maple, Bonnie Pink tops?




And for the record, I agree with Jester that it would make this forum more interesting and draw more participants.

Jester
11-17-2012, 10:48 PM
I think the goal is the same as any manufacturer's self-hosted forum: to provide a place for people to discuss our products and things related to our products (Fender and Orange come to mind, off the top of my head). I like how Shawn can chime in with some content even I haven't seen (and I work down the hall from him). We're going to make an effort to do even more of that here.

My other goal for the forum is to be the first place we announce anything new and can answer questions on it. If I have new info on a new product we're coming out with, or an event that's taking place somewhere, this is the first place I'll post it.

Finally, I want to hear what Goldtop is listening to today.

I am with you. I think this forum can be exceptional in that it can combine input by the company (announce new things, Shawn and co. chiming in to answer questions) with a robust user community of PRS fans. Input from users provides feedback on the company's products, content of miscellaneous interest (e.g., what Goldtop is listening to today) and expertise as well. Hey, if you want to know esoteric details about an 86, you don't ask customer service, you ask Queencityguitars or one of the other collector/historians.

I think developing a strong user community should be one of the main goals of the forum. I will be more successful if you have a large number of people checking in here several times a day, generating a lot of the above mentioned content. I see that you are pretty firmly resolved on not having a classified section. Unfortunately, I really believe it is going to be hard to build up the forum without it. Just my opinion.

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
11-18-2012, 02:02 AM
Out with #2 already, James.

Ok... that just didn't sound right at all. :biggrin:

Goldtop
11-18-2012, 03:27 PM
I have two complaints about this forum. #1. We badly need a classified section for selling used guitars. Most of the heavy users of guitar forums are guitaraholics. We buy and sell guitars often. New incoming often means one or several outgoing. When choosing a forum to call home, it is a HUGE attraction if it has a classified section. I do not believe this forum will achieve critical mass and thrive without one.

Yes, I know PRS is in the business of selling NEW guitars. However, the success of the forum will benefit PRS by increasing interest and enthusiasm in the brand. Also, I do not think used guitar sales will take away from new guitar sales. Let's face it, used PRS are MUCH less expensive than new PRS. It is not the same market. A guy who wants a new one is going to buy a new one because it is pristine, it may be the newest hot thing, he has a huge selection to get exactly the right color and options her wants and there is virtually no fraud risk with dealers. A guy who wants to save money on a used one is going to get a used one; he is not going to give up and pay an extra 50% for a new one.

I will also say a word about liability. If you are worried about the company getting pulled into a dispute on a sale gone bad, I would simply say put a BIG HONKING DISCLAIMER IN BOLD TYPE ALL CAPS IN HUGE FONT at the top of the classified section and each thread therein making clear that the company is in no way involved and is not policing the section.

Anyone else with me?

I'll post #2 in a few days.


No, I'm not with you at all. Actually, and I say this with the utmost respect possible, I find several of your blanket statements rather self-serving and boorish, but hopefully that's just my take and wasn't your true intention. More on all of that later.

The idea of some sort of sale/trade section here has already been addressed on numerous occasions. I for one like not having listings, trade offers, and even 'unofficial' ads from dealers here. As has already been pointed out, there are countless places on the web where that content can be found by those who are interested. IMO, this forum is different (read:better) much in the same way that most PRS products themselves are different. If someone wants 'the usual' (for lack of a better term), then it's out there waiting for them. If they want something a bit different, then PRS might be what they're looking for. That includes the PRS forum itself.

Obviously, what constitutes a 'HUGE attraction when choosing a forum to call home' is different for everyone. Personally, if I want to wade through sales pitches then I know where to find them. I don't wish to have them as part of the accepted scenery in yet another setting. PRS isn't a 'normal' guitar and amp maker. By extension, their forum isn't the 'normal' type either. I find that refreshing and unique, and a very pleasant change from most guitar-related sites and forums.

To those who want ads, etc. here, what is the point? Why do you want that feature here? To add to the camaraderie and enjoyment of the PRS community? Or is it primarily to increase your own chances to buy or sell something? No offense intended, but if that's your aim then I think it might be a bit selfish.

I suggest that we all be gracious enough to accept this venue for what it is and how it is, and perhaps seek out other sites that 'achieve critical mass and thrive' in ways more in line with differing sensibilities and expectations as needed. After all, there's no law that says PRS even has to have a forum at all. I don't think it's too much to ask that we take it and enjoy it as it is presented to us (and presented free of charge by the way!).

Now, Jester, to some of your remarks that I found troubling. Who is this ‘we’ to whom you refer? Please refrain from stating what 'we' need. I am more than capable of deciding - and voicing - my own needs. I require and accept NO outside assistance in this area, and I imagine most members here are equally qualified. You focusing on your own needs and desires? Fine. Mine? Please leave them to me.

Also, I visit and/or post on this forum virtually every day, and have done so since its inception. Based on your limited criteria, then that apparently makes me a ‘heavy user’, a ‘guitarholic'. Fine by me. I can live with that label.

However, your generalization is again incorrect, as most generalizations usually are. I don't know anything about you, but I'd be willing to say that it is entirely possible that I was buying, selling, building and playing guitars before you were even born. Yet not once in all of that time did I find it a hinderance not to have (A) the internet, or (B) a forum which allows commercial listings at my disposal. So it's by no means crucial that a forum provide a trade area of some kind. Convenient, yes. Crucial, no.

The last point I will make is a simple one. This forum is owned and controlled by Paul Reed Smith Guitars. It is theirs to run as they see fit. As users, we have the choice of either following the rules and participating within those guidelines, or going elsewhere. The subject of possibly adding a marketplace of some type has already been addressed. And rejected. I for one have no problem with that.

Again, absolutely respectfully to all, Goldtop

Goldtop
11-18-2012, 03:34 PM
Finally, I want to hear what Goldtop is listening to today.

James,

I am sincerely flattered and humbled by that. Thank you - and anyone else who may notice - for being interested. Makes my weekend!

Goldtop

markie
11-18-2012, 04:48 PM
I can assure you that the Jester's comments are based upon what he believes will make a better Forum & not "self-serving" in any way. I have known the Jester for many years & he is nothing short of a class act. I also know that he has not sold but a handfull of Guitars in his life. I believe he has some very valid points for creating additional traffic on the site.


Personally, I will readily admit the following .......................... I want my, I want my, I want my B.A.M :biggrin:

docbennett
11-18-2012, 05:01 PM
I'm going to reply to Goldtop's post above, since I have been an outspoken supporter of a "used/for-sale" section in this forum in the past, and on this thread. So, I'd like to make my opinions known for what they're worth.

Speaking for myself, the desire to have a "used/sale" section was in no way an attempt to increase my capacity for selling. IMO, no forum out there is going to end up seriously competing with eBay for an audience. And, if you REALLY need a forum to sell used gear, there are forums like TGP for the larger more generalized audience...and Vintage Rocker for a more defined niche market.
Speaking strictly for myself...I thought that a "used/sale" section would greatly increase the number of participants in the forum. And, additionally, bring in others who may not have joined otherwise.

If you folks in charge of this great forum can think of other ideas to increase the participating audience...that would be great. But...again..speaking strictly for myself....there was no underlying commercial intent behind the desire to add such a section to this forum. Just a desire to "increase the volume" so to speak.

This is a great forum, BTW. And most appreciated. Hopefully the suggestions are not perceived as criticisms.

LSchefman
11-18-2012, 06:44 PM
I am certain that Jester and Bennett's intentions were for the good of the forum, and not for selfish reasons. Fact is, people enjoy trading, and if you think about it, every physical community in history has been built around a marketplace. In fact, the original meaning of the Latin word "forum" was "marketplace." So their thinking might be that this community would attract more participation with a marketplace as well (please correct me if I'm wrong). More participation is certainly not a bad thing.

On a personal level, a used guitar marketplace isn't something I think this forum needs. I see it more as a marketplace of information and ideas.

But as Hans once famously put it, we all have our shtick.

Mine is to interact with PRS the company, get product info, and share my enthusiasm and ideas about what they make with friends here. Lots of ancillary topics come up that I'm interested in discussing, and I like the vibe here.

I'm mostly a new guitar kind of person, and I frequently check out the new PRS models via the product link at the top of the page. It's also not unusual for my interest in an instrument to be piqued by something I've encountered here recently, or on other forums. The 408 is an example (thanks, Twinfan for getting my interest up!).

PRS' product demos have been a great source of information, and I can think right offhand of three things I needed in the past year for my studio that absolutely were bought as the direct result of seeing and hearing the products demoed by PRS endorsers on the various product pages, and having Paul run through the controls and showing how they interact. Superb sources of info with good audio - audio is an important component for me, as a studio guy, as is hearing a variety of tones from the controls.

I also liked hearing the Nicky Moroch amp demos with backing track. Hugely helpful, and I wish that more demos included this kind of thing in addition to the straight "here's how the controls work" kind of demo.

butterfly
11-18-2012, 10:03 PM
Wow. I'm surprised that the classified section is an issue. Speaking personally and as someone who has bought and sold on TGP for a decade I don't think other forums will ever achieve the liquidity TGP has. There is already a lot of duplicate posting between here and Vintage Rocker. Aside from the fact that this is a company forum I don't think the classified section would work as well as TGP.
Thanks James and Shawn.

Goldtop
11-19-2012, 06:31 AM
I am certain that Jester and Bennett's intentions were for the good of the forum, and not for selfish reasons.


Between your comments and those of markie, I believe that Jester's point was not to be selfish. I don't know any of you other than through this forum or VR, but based on that I can easily believe that everyone in this discussion is coming from a good place. Hopefully the feeling is mutual.

Personally, I like the forum as it is now. But if a sales/trade section is added someday I'll still come here. I believe most of us would.

Goldtop

Goldtop
11-19-2012, 06:38 AM
I'm going to reply to Goldtop's post above, since I have been an outspoken supporter of a "used/for-sale" section in this forum in the past, and on this thread. So, I'd like to make my opinions known for what they're worth.
This is a great forum, BTW. And most appreciated. Hopefully the suggestions are not perceived as criticisms.

Thanks for your reply. I agree with you; this is a great forum. And as I said in another response, I'd come here whether there was a trade section or not, as I think most of us would.

Goldtop

Serious Poo
11-19-2012, 09:26 AM
I don't think a swap meet section would do any positive things for this forum. As James said, there are many other places for that. Also, the amount of pure crap that goes on with online forum sales is rediculously time consuming for the mods. Users generally don't see this stuff, it's left to the moderators to sort out and police. If, in a perfect world, people posted honest ads and buyers always honored their commitments it might be different. However, that's not the world we live in so I'm against it here. This forum is like a peaceful little town with great neighbors and a mayor everyone likes. Building a casino here might cause more problems than it would solve IMHO.

Harker1440
11-20-2012, 09:37 PM
OK Who Flung Poo ?????

justmund
11-21-2012, 12:24 AM
If there was ever to be a 'For Sale' section here, I'd like it to be more like an authentication/setup service by the PTC. Totally doesn't work for guitars outside of the US, but maybe a guitar could be sent to the PTC for a check over, authentication, and a setup. I say authentication because of the dodgy Chinese knock offs that are popping up (and will continue to become more convincing), and I would pay a small premium to get something from PRS to say this guitar is real. Setups are of course user preference (string gauge, pickup height, action etc) but I think it would be better than "just been setup by my luthier".

A guitar that has been PTC checked can then be listed as available on the PRSf, no prices, and buyer just inquires by private message, so the policy of no public price discussion is upheld.

Just my 2 cents :)

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
11-21-2012, 12:50 AM
Certified Used PRS? With the latest tweaks by the PTC?

I like it.

docbennett
11-21-2012, 07:53 AM
If there was ever to be a 'For Sale' section here, I'd like it to be more like an authentication/setup service by the PTC. Totally doesn't work for guitars outside of the US, but maybe a guitar could be sent to the PTC for a check over, authentication, and a setup. I say authentication because of the dodgy Chinese knock offs that are popping up (and will continue to become more convincing), and I would pay a small premium to get something from PRS to say this guitar is real. Setups are of course user preference (string gauge, pickup height, action etc) but I think it would be better than "just been setup by my luthier".

A guitar that has been PTC checked can then be listed as available on the PRSf, no prices, and buyer just inquires by private message, so the policy of no public price discussion is upheld.

Just my 2 cents :)

Great idea. Manages to get the company into the mix with a very small "profit center" and allows the used guitar to be "certified". And, gets the guitar listed on this forum which further "certifies it".

I love the idea.

LSchefman
11-27-2012, 11:59 AM
Great idea. Manages to get the company into the mix with a very small "profit center" and allows the used guitar to be "certified". And, gets the guitar listed on this forum which further "certifies it".

I love the idea.

Please, no.

The PTC has wonderfully fast turnaround time, and does amazing, detailed, productive work on guitars where warranty or paying customer projects should have, and do have, priority.

And so you want to tie them up verifying and turning around used guitars just to have another place to sell used gear? Are you kidding?

You can buy certified used cars from a Mercedes or BMW dealer. They do not get sent back to the factory. The dealer handles any repairs. That's the way it makes sense.

rugerpc
11-27-2012, 02:46 PM
Maybe this thread should be combined with this other thread... Man this place is dead! (http://prsguitars.com/forum/showthread.php?2133-Man-this-place-is-dead!) as I seem to want to post the same thing in each...