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View Full Version : Need some Re-amping help! Planned to re-amp a head directly and apply impulses later



John
02-02-2013, 12:56 AM
Hey all, so I have a Mesa Rectifier and some DI tracks laid out, and would love to try to re-amp them. I don't have any decent instrumental microphones besides a 57, but with the space I'm currently living in, my neighbors will kill me if I crank it up and personally, and since I tend to burn the midnight oil while doing this stuff, I needed other options. Also, a mic'd up amp I've attenuated the living crap out of just isn't the same to me.

I was thinking I could just record it direct and use impulses since I've had experience with that, and I'm pleased with the tones I achieved while recording direct. I love the potential flexibility of reamping, but don't think I entirely understand the possibilities of reamping. I have been able to record direct with the head, a dummy load, and some good old Redwirez impulses no problem, but now I wanted to treat some DI tracks, either some made by yours truly, or by someone else I wanted to have a mess around with.

Apart from having a guitar, head, Logic 9, an impulse loader, and a dummy load, I have

-A Radial reamper. I don't mind not having a DI box per se, and the dry tracks are decent enough IMO.
http://www.radialeng.com/r2011/images/prormp/prormp-top-lrg.jpg

-A Roland Tri-Capture
http://www.prosoundweb.com/images/uploads/LargeRolandUSBAudioCapture.jpg

Also I used an old Line 6 for the guitars every once in awhile, though it's not very useful at the moment. Since this is my first time trying to pull off this stunt, I figured I could ask you guys for help on how to set this stuff up, though it's a bit off the beaten path, and I want to get it right rather than hearing some ungodly awful squelch and squealing from something because I may have accidentally the setup or something else dumb.

Thanks in advance

sergiodeblanc
02-02-2013, 02:15 AM
Does the balanced LR out still work when you plug in the headphones?

John
02-02-2013, 02:46 AM
Does the balanced LR out still work when you plug in the headphones?

Hi Sergio, it still works when I tried that.

John
02-02-2013, 05:57 PM
bumping this

LSchefman
02-02-2013, 07:20 PM
OK I'm going to describe the purpose of re-amping first:

An amp wants to see a -25 to -20 dBu signal level. That's what comes out of your guitar. A recording device wants to see either a microphone level or line level signal, depending on the device. Most DI boxes put out both signal levels, and are switchable or have separate outputs for each. Mic signal level is about -15 dBu, and line level for pro gear is +4 dBu. (Line level for hobbyist gear is -10 dBv, which is a completely different measurement, note the "v" instead of the "u").

You use the DI box to turn a guitar level signal into a line level signal. You use the Re-amping box to turn the line level signal that comes out of the DAW into a guitar level signal again, so you can amplify it. You can use a real amp to do this with a mic or a load box, or you can use a hardware modeling device to create a line-level signal to plug directly into your line level inputs on your DAW.

There is a third alternative for which you do not need to use a re-amping box: Using the DI to record a dry signal into your DAW, and then choosing a software modeler like the Amp Designer built into Logic to model an amp. Using a software modeler is like using an effects processor in the DAW; it does not change the direct signal permanently (unless you bounce a track).

Since you have ruled out re-amping with a real amp due to noise considerations, you are left with choosing between a hardware modeler using your Re-Amp box, or using software and not needing a Re-amp box.

Also, if you record with a hardware device, you don't need a DI box, all hardware modelers put out a line level signal.

What you do NOT want to do is re-amp the amplified signal you recorded with your amp and the load box. That's an amplified signal that doesn't need re-amping, unless you just want to use it as a wacky effect (which is fine, it's just probably not what you want).

Most DI boxes have an instrument level parallel output that allows you to record both a dry signal into your DAW, and send the other output into your guitar amp or hardware modeler, so you can do both at the same time. This method lets you record both ways at once, so you can have both the amplified signal and the dry signal, and choose between the re-amped signal later, or the wet signal laid down with the amp or modeler, or blend them.

In fact, a good DI box will also have a ground lift to prevent ground loops when doing this.

This is the way it's done in studios.

John
02-02-2013, 07:42 PM
Hi LSchefman,
I've used the 3rd thing you listed for tracking guitars and to get the DI tracks, or I'm using someone else's DI tracks, so I figured that didn't really need a DI box due to having some hardware that already puts out a line level signal. Though I had some success with it, I'm still not 100% satisfied with the tone, hence I tried to use my own amplifier for guitar tones.

It's from there I hoped I could use what I have to reamp and get the amp head's tone with a load box- which I plan on combining with some impulses I have on hand, which has been done by others, but so far I haven't had anyone knowledgeable in that field to be a bit less tight-lipped about how to pull it off. lol
My big problem, apart from wanting to know for sure how to wire this stuff up right, is that when I made my first attempt at this- not only did I have an ungodly screech coming out of my stuff, it was- needless to say- not very productive.

Since I already had DI tracks prepared, what I tried to do the following which of course failed with flying colors.

Mixer output (Roland)--> Radial ProRMP Reamper---> Tubescreamer---> Amplifier head---> dummy load ---> Tricapture interface input (Roland)---> Redwirez cabinet impulses----> DAW

I just don't know if there's something I'm missing or if I just need to try something different to get this setup to work.
Again, what I wanted to try and do is capture the head's tone alone. Yes, it sound like feces alone, but that's where the impulses come in.
I've heard it could be done (and some of the results I heard were nice) before, but nobody else to my knowledge has cared to elaborate.

LSchefman
02-03-2013, 02:13 AM
I'm not familiar with your interface, but it sounds like you somehow created a feedback loop in your software and interface.

Because I'm not familiar with your particular interface and software, I don't know if that's it for sure, just an educated guess on my part. Make sure you're on different channels for input and output.

John
02-03-2013, 02:56 AM
Hmm, perhaps that might be so. I'll check that out and see if that helps any.
On a side note, would you say that using a TRS cable from the mixer's output (the Roland) would make a significant difference? I didn't have one at hand and according to the manual from Roland, I could use either balanced or unbalanced cables. :scratches head in confusion some more:

LSchefman
02-03-2013, 10:06 AM
Hmm, perhaps that might be so. I'll check that out and see if that helps any.
On a side note, would you say that using a TRS cable from the mixer's output (the Roland) would make a significant difference? I didn't have one at hand and according to the manual from Roland, I could use either balanced or unbalanced cables. :scratches head in confusion some more:

You mean from the mixer's output to the input of the radial box? That depends on what the radial box wants to see. I have no idea.

John
02-03-2013, 09:40 PM
Well, that's how it said to wire it up-- as in mixer out--> Radial--> Tubescreamer--> Amp.

John
02-04-2013, 01:19 AM
Bumping this thread again since I have yet to resolve the feedback loop/screeching problem.

andymue
02-04-2013, 04:16 AM
If I understand your setup right, you're connecting the output of your DAW (via the Roland interface) to an amp and that back into your interface and into the DAW.
If so, you must make sure that the tracks in your DAW that you're recording into are muted somehow. Because otherwise there's your feedback loop: Sound from the rec tracks goes out of the DAW into your amp and back into the same tracks...

John
02-04-2013, 04:58 AM
If I understand your setup right, you're connecting the output of your DAW (via the Roland interface) to an amp and that back into your interface and into the DAW.
If so, you must make sure that the tracks in your DAW that you're recording into are muted somehow. Because otherwise there's your feedback loop: Sound from the rec tracks goes out of the DAW into your amp and back into the same tracks...

Hi Andy,

Yes, that's basically how I have it set up. Now, I have made sure that I'm just getting one track at a time, so everything else is mute. I even turned off input monitoring and made sure that the dry track is going on a different output. (I set it to output 7-8 on Logic if that is of any value). Would I need to change inputs, too? Because even if I'm not doing anything or having anything on, I'm still getting a consistent feedback loop that's on the verge of clipping on my interface. Needless to say, it manifests if I press record.

FWIW, here's a sample of the ungodly screeching feedback loop I'm still getting. 10-11 seconds may be overkill, but you'll get the point: https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/Feedback%20loop%20reamping%20problem%20Feb%202013. aif?w=AADID-ZIlixS2rP_bx-x2Jxfh5TZeAeMD9FZQmVyhP3LLw

andymue
02-04-2013, 12:27 PM
Hi John,

well, I don't know that interface, but judging from the pic, I would try these settings:
Rec Mode - All Inputs
Output Mute - Off
Input Monitor - Off (though I'm not sure what the "Auto" means, that seems to be in effect then)

Additionally, the DAW should be setup like this (Logic users might chime in on the exact details):
You have a dry track that contains the signal you're trying to reamp. This track should be routed to the output of the Roland interface and should have no input assigned.
You have an empty track, that has the line input of your Roland interface assigned to. This track MUST NOT be routet to the output of the Roland interface.
All other tracks should be muted (or not routed to the Roland output).

If this setup gives you a feedback loop, then something weird is going on.
Does the feedbak go away if you're enabling the output mute of your interface?
Is there actually sound coming out of the amp when the feedback's hitting in?

John
02-04-2013, 04:25 PM
Hi Andy,

The feedback does not go away even if I enable the output mute
No sound is coming out of the amp, just a monotone screech, I'm afraid.

andymue
02-04-2013, 04:52 PM
Ok, so, the feedback loop is happening somehow between your DAW and your interface.
I'm assuming the Peak/Sig indicators on your input are off (since no sound from the amp should also mean no sound at your input).

Then the only thing that I could think of would be to check with the ASIO control panel of your device.
Sometimes (like for example for the PODs) the monitor setting can be set in the software and it might override the hardware setting (that's probably the meaning of "Auto").
If monitoring is on, this explains the feedback loop instantly.

John
02-04-2013, 10:39 PM
Turned off monitoring (same goes for software monitoring on Logic), as far as the screeching feedback loop goes, nothing has changed.

Regarding ASIO, is there any sort of Mac equivalent to that? This is all I get if I open up the control panel for the Roland.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5n6kxzg9bortxot/Screen%20Shot%202013-02-04%20at%209.35.55%20PM.png

https://photos-6.dropbox.com/t/0/AACoTw9eX1mG6bZTC2NZ-j1J1QCBSPj4Dzzx0145iSrQ2A/10/142166616/png/32x32/6/_/1/2/Screen%20Shot%202013-02-04%20at%209.35.55%20PM.png/ZYS3drXcL-1B0iwjAmk5gpUgCpfG37OMHiGpn3D-ho8?size=1024x768&size_mode=2

John
02-04-2013, 10:58 PM
Additionally, I should mention that even adjusting the output level on my re-amping unit has no bearing on how bad the feedback loop is, would you say that's all the more reason that it has something to do with how I have set something up in my DAW or my interface?

John
02-05-2013, 03:55 AM
Bumping because it still remains unsolved. FWIW, tinkering with my Radial's output volume still made no difference for the feedback loop and screech.

Same went for quitting Logic, which makes me wonder if it's a routing problem with my gear after all, since this still happens even if I mic' it up. Or is something I did with the DAW off. (I routed the DI track to output 3-4, and the output for where the amp should go is on the default Stereo out 1-2).

John
02-05-2013, 04:10 PM
bump.

andymue
02-06-2013, 11:56 AM
Same went for quitting Logic, which makes me wonder if it's a routing problem with my gear after all, since this still happens even if I mic' it up. Or is something I did with the DAW off. (I routed the DI track to output 3-4, and the output for where the amp should go is on the default Stereo out 1-2).

How was the exact setup in this case (no DAW and mic)?
What are those outputs 1-2 / 3-4?
Are they the outputs that the Roland interface presents to your computer? If so, where are they actually routed to (the Roland only has 1 pair of physical outputs...)?