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QueenCityGuitars
02-20-2013, 10:30 AM
The new Collection Series VI International Custom 24, and the new Private Stock Paul's Guitar, are advertised as having a "Chaltecoco Pernambuco" neck. Is there a difference between Pernambuco and Chaltecoco Pernambuco?

docbennett
02-20-2013, 10:45 AM
Great question Bryan....will follow this thread to see what the company has to say.

Twinfan
02-20-2013, 10:56 AM
I emailed Customer Services a little while ago asking the same question! If I get a response before you do, I'll post it here.

LSchefman
02-20-2013, 11:12 AM
Here's an article on Pernambuco that might be of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesalpinia_echinata

Brazilian wood
02-20-2013, 04:04 PM
Interesting thing....These is a point that should be elucidated in order not to create another "sinkergate" (LOL).
It seems that both are part of the the same genus Caesalpinia. Caesalpinia echinata is Pernambuco wood, also known here in Brazil as "Pau-Brasil" (because its color that resembles a flamed charcoal, in Portuguese - Brasa). Brasil, the country was named after this wood, 5 centuries ago. Chaltecoco seems to be a different species Caesalpinia velutina which growths in Guatemala.
Even if they have same appearance and sonic properties it would be an analog situation of comparing two other "cousins" Brazilian Rosewood (Dalbergia nigra) to Indian Rosewood (Dalbergia latifolia).

Twinfan
02-21-2013, 03:13 AM
Is there no official word from PRS on this? I didn't get a reply to my email to Customer Services, and nothing's been added here.

Shawn?

:dontknow:

docbennett
02-21-2013, 06:26 AM
The key concern is that (at least on another forum anyway) it has been disclosed that Pernambuco is the choice hi-premuim wood...used in "$25,000 violin bows" while the Chaltecoco has been described as a wood that is (and I quote) "appropriate for fence posts and fire wood".

So...there appears to be a great discrepancy between the quality of the two sub-species with regard to their sonic properties and value. Further information from the "horse's mouth" would be invaluable in preventing another "stinker-gate".

docbennett
02-21-2013, 06:28 AM
..........Even if they have same appearance and sonic properties it would be an analog situation of comparing two other "cousins" Brazilian Rosewood (Dalbergia nigra) to Indian Rosewood (Dalbergia latifolia).

The early ME-2's had necks that were described as "Dalbergia Nigra" in the specs and it certainly was NOT Brazilian Rosewood...so I am a bit confused by the above.

Twinfan
02-21-2013, 06:51 AM
The ME2s were specced as 'Select Dalbergia Neck & Fretboard': “We’ve found a new kind of black rosewood that we’re using for the necks and fretboards,” said Paul

http://www.dv247.com/news/PRS%20Modern%20Eagle%20II,%20Starla%20and%20Prism% 20Guitars/131981
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ModEagle2tRT

Getting back to the pernambuco question, I can only assume that a change of name in the specs means that it is no longer the same pernambuco we've seen before.

My question is whether it's a close cousin within the genus, maybe as per Brazilian Rosewood versus Indian Rosewood, or are they more disparate like a lion and a leopard?

docbennett
02-21-2013, 07:13 AM
Twinfan.....My error...as posted elsewhere, the correct spec for ME-2's was "Select Dalbergia" so it was NOT BRW but a substitute. Sorry for the incorrect attribution. Still concerned, as "select Dalbergia" certainly was inferior to the BRW we had grown accustomed to in the former run of ME's. So...to maintain the correlation...is the "new pernambuco" just as inferior to the original pernambuco that came so highly priced and higly acclaimed??

Twinfan
02-21-2013, 07:18 AM
This is the question isn't it Doc!

I'd certainly like to know what this new stuff is :)

docbennett
02-21-2013, 07:29 AM
This is the question isn't it Doc! I'd certainly like to know what this new stuff is :)

Agreed....as someone who shelled out over $2,500 extra for my PS #3340's PB neck...simply because I was told by my dealer at the time that the PB necks were going to be discontinued as soon as the supply ran out...there were a couple neck blanks left for PS specs, and the remainder had been reserved for the collection series....and this was straight from a very reputable dealer who knew about the PB in the collection series at least 8 months before the first one was even released.

So yes...I am very interested in what the quality of the "PB Prime....the "coco-PB" consists of. Especially having paid for the "premium wood" already.

Twinfan
02-21-2013, 08:10 AM
Yep, I paid the preium for my Collection V and my PS SC245. On the SC245, it was a ~£900 upcharge.

I don't think I could have justified that to myself for a "fence post" ;)

markie
02-21-2013, 08:34 AM
As an owner of several Pernambuco Guitars, I agree that PRS needs to provide an explanation/statement. However, I seems like we could show a little patience in waiting for a response. I would think we will hear something by the end of the day. I am certainly sitting in the front row & have some concerns about this. I just don't think it's fair to have a trial without a response from PRS..............

Twinfan
02-21-2013, 09:03 AM
I'm not looking for a trial, I'd just like to see a response to a what was a very straightforward question asked right at the top of this thread here on the offical PRS forum, and in my email to Customer Services:


The new Collection Series VI International Custom 24, and the new Private Stock Paul's Guitar, are advertised as having a "Chaltecoco Pernambuco" neck. Is there a difference between Pernambuco and Chaltecoco Pernambuco?

markie
02-21-2013, 09:21 AM
I'm not looking for a trial, I'd just like to see a response to a what was a very straightforward question asked right at the top of this thread here on the offical PRS forum, and in my email to Customer Services:


I am anxiously awaiting as well :)

Shawn@PRS
02-21-2013, 09:24 AM
Hang on guys, I'm awaiting word from the experts

LSchefman
02-21-2013, 09:30 AM
Still concerned, as "select Dalbergia" certainly was inferior to the BRW we had grown accustomed to in the former run of ME's.

What, exactly, was inferior about it?

iahawk36
02-21-2013, 09:33 AM
Hang on guys, I'm awaiting word from the experts

Good man...thank you Shawn.

LSchefman
02-21-2013, 09:40 AM
Here's what makes me kind of scratch my head, guys, and please forgive me.

People have been going on and on about how absolutely great their pernie guitars sound, and how wonderful they are. There have been posts on forums how the notes just jump off the neck, and how lively they are.

Someone posts a statement that the wood being used is suitable only for fence posts that he got off the internet, and suddenly, do the guitars not sound as good now?

It's the same load of BS as the sinker mahogany thing all over again.

I bought a Sig Ltd knowing full well that the wood didn't sit in a lake for 100 years or whatever, just a few months ago, unlike some who were into mythology and "rarity" which to me is complete BS and absolutely not a reason to buy a musical instrument.

Twinfan
02-21-2013, 09:42 AM
Yep, cheers Shawn! Looking forward to your reponse :)

Twinfan
02-21-2013, 09:46 AM
Les,

I have no problem with the pernambuco guitars I own, they're superb. Part of my personal justification for paying their upcharge was that I was getting something rare, and so the upcharge was somewhat validated.

I'm curious to know if this new stuff is the same as the old stuff or not. If it's different, then I need to know what's different about it before I pay the large premium in the future for another Collection model or similar. If the new stuff is plentiful and can be obtained very easily in large quantities, then my own evaluation of its "worth" would change significantly.

LSchefman
02-21-2013, 09:51 AM
Les,

I have no problem with the pernambuco guitars I own, they're superb. Part of my personal justification for paying their upcharge was that I was getting something rare, and so the upcharge was somewhat validated.

I'm curious to know if this new stuff is the same as the old stuff or not. If it's different, then I need to know what's different about it before I pay the large premium in the future for another Collection model or similar. If the new stuff is plentiful and can be obtained very easily in large quantities, then my own evaluation of its "worth" would change significantly.

Why, if the purpose is to sound good and it does? What if your high-buck pernie neck that you say is superb was the fence post stuff? Then it clearly wouldn't be for fence posts, would it?

It's really hard for me to believe that people are such suckers for this mythology.

People are raving about their obeche private stocks, and how good they sound, and how light they are, until they find out the stuff is actually one of the cheaper woods. Suddenly, this magical stuff is junk, right?

Or maybe it isn't. Maybe it's worth experimenting a little?

If you're buying an instrument, buy it because it sounds good. If you're buying a myth, caveat emptor.

There's a guy in NY who's making Teles out of old reclaimed pine. He's getting a premium for it. For what?

It's PINE! Geez. Cheapest wood building material there is. Not considered a tone wood. Suckahs!

People will buy anything they think is "rare" without giving a thought to using some common sense.

Twinfan
02-21-2013, 09:56 AM
If the neck of my two pernies were (or indeed are!) made of fence post wood, then I would be INCREDIBLY angry that they were sold to me at great expense as "the wood that $30,000 violin bows are made out of".

It's all about knowing what you're buying, and whether the associated price matches the value you place on that. It's got nothing to do with the instrument itself per se, but about the Sales of Goods Act.

Would you be happy ordering a steak off the menu, which was sold as steak and tasted good, but you then found out it was human flesh?

iahawk36
02-21-2013, 09:56 AM
Here's what makes me kind of scratch my head, guys, and please forgive me.

People have been going on and on about how absolutely great their pernie guitars sound, and how wonderful they are. There have been posts on forums how the notes just jump off the neck, and how lively they are.

Someone posts a statement that the wood being used is suitable only for fence posts that he got off the internet, and suddenly, do the guitars not sound as good now?

It's the same load of BS as the sinker mahogany thing all over again.

I bought a Sig Ltd knowing full well that the wood didn't sit in a lake for 100 years or whatever, just a few months ago, unlike some who were into mythology and "rarity" which to me is complete BS and absolutely not a reason to buy a musical instrument.

My ONLY problem with it, as it was with "sinker gate" is that they're advertising it knowing full well that it either IS or IS NOT the same as the previous batch of pernambuco. My opinion, is that PRS knows their customer base well enough to know that it makes a difference to some of them, so why not fully disclose that information up front? Someone will ALWAYS ask, so I would think it would go a long way from a PR standpoint to disclose that info at least to the dealers, even if they don't want to post it publicly.

If it's a great guitar, regardless of the wood, it's a great guitar....absolutely true. For SOME folks though, it DOES in fact make a difference. I bought into the "sinker" wood because in the instrument making world, that term means something very specific, and people (including me) bought that guitar with that specifically in mind. Some felt cheated after finding out that "sinker" wood didn't mean the same thing as the industry standard. Some folks didn't care one bit. Just my .02.

LSchefman
02-21-2013, 10:07 AM
If the neck of my two pernies were (or indeed are!) made of fence post wood, then I would be INCREDIBLY angry that they were sold to me at great expense as "the wood that $30,000 violin bows are made out of".

It's all about knowing what you're buying, and whether the associated price matches the value you place on that. It's got nothing to do with the instrument itself per se, but about the Sales of Goods Act.

Would you be happy ordering a steak off the menu, which was sold as steak and tasted good, but you then found out it was human flesh?

I'd think they'd get a premium for People Steak... ;)

I'm just yanking your chain on your pernambuco, all you have to do is look at it and it's the same wood as the wood in the pernie pictures on the internet. Lots of people posted their pics of their clear coated necks and guitar back and sides, and it's clearly the same red-orange, tight-grained, stuff.

But you were the one telling me to get one of these Collection guitars, because it is so great, etc, and so much better sounding than your Sig Ltd, etc. I'd really kind of get a kick out of it if it WAS the fencepost stuff. Because it would show one of two things: either the fencepost stuff is actually NOT for fenceposts, or because you simply had convinced yourself of something that had no relationship to reality.

Either way, it's kind of interesting, though I'm guessing you know your guitars enough to know that they really do sound great. ;)

But they're TELLING you in this case that it's chaltecoco or whatever. They're telling you right up front.

It ain't the same stuff. All you have to do is look it up. That's why I posted the link I did earlier in this thread.

There's NOTHING to get bent out of shape about. Don't buy it if you don't want it.

As for me, it wasn't an option in the first place. I'm just entertained watching the high-end guys squirm a little. :)

Shawn@PRS
02-21-2013, 10:37 AM
Chaltecoco is the same genus as Pernambuco, but they are a different species. Just as Cocobolo’s scientific name is Dalbergia Retusa and Brazilian Rrosewood’s scientific name is Dalbergia Negra. Same genus (rosewood), but different species. Chaltecoco is similar to Pernambuco in tonal quality, density and appearance. Again, same genus, different species.

As for Chaltecoco being used in construction, yes that is true. But guess what? 200 years ago Brazilian rosewood was also used in construction. Where do you think we get our Brazilian rosewood today? You think we’re out cutting down BRW trees? Nope! We are harvesting beams from old homes and barns. Should Brazilian Rosewood be considered ‘junk wood’ because it was once used to fence in cattle?

TGSCAN
02-21-2013, 10:42 AM
Chaltecoco is the same genus as Pernambuco, but they are a different species. Just as Cocobolo’s scientific name is Dalbergia Retusa and Brazilian Rrosewood’s scientific name is Dalbergia Negra. Same genus (rosewood), but different species. Chaltecoco is similar to Pernambuco in tonal quality, density and appearance. Again, same genus, different species.

As for Chaltecoco being used in construction, yes that is true. But guess what? 200 years ago Brazilian rosewood was also used in construction. Where do you think we get our Brazilian rosewood today? You think we’re out cutting down BRW trees? Nope! We are harvesting beams from old homes and barns. Should Brazilian Rosewood be considered ‘junk wood’ because it was once used to fence in cattle?


I have a great old mahogany lawyers desk at home.. it has sexy MAHOGANY legs ;-))

Like mine ;-))

LSchefman
02-21-2013, 10:49 AM
All this, and I'm out of popcorn!

TGSCAN
02-21-2013, 10:54 AM
All this, and I'm out of popcorn!


HA !

;-)

docbennett
02-21-2013, 10:56 AM
Les...you are totally missing the point on this one. As the PRS Forum's chief apologist, you are always first to jump up and defend the company. We have had some heated arugements about this in the past...although I am glad that we have remained friends.

Listen...this is what you are missing.....it's not the sound...not the tone...it's the price being paid for a premium wood that is later found to possibly NOT be the premium wood we are paying for. It's the "sinker crap" all over again.

When you pay for something that is described as something...and then find out that what you paid for was ersatz...you are well within your rights to be upset.

this has NOTHING to do with the overall quality of the tone, or the woods or anything related, IMO. It has EVERYTHING to do with how a product is represented, and then "modified" from the original presentation.

If the "new PB" is the "Coco PB" than I would want a significant refund on the bucks that I paid for a product that was advertised differently than it is now represented.

I value your opinions on music, production and related issues, Les. But, when it comes to PRS, I see the defense attorney in you coming out in spades. I still respect your opinion, but find you to be somewhat subjective in your defense arguements.

Your friend, Bennett


Edit.....and to further the arguement....As an example only....if you buy genuine PAF's...you are NOT paying for the actual PAF's tone...you are paying for the mythology and rarity, since we all know the variablility of these pickups.

QueenCityGuitars
02-21-2013, 11:06 AM
Chaltecoco is the same genus as Pernambuco, but they are a different species. Just as Cocobolo’s scientific name is Dalbergia Retusa and Brazilian Rrosewood’s scientific name is Dalbergia Negra. Same genus (rosewood), but different species. Chaltecoco is similar to Pernambuco in tonal quality, density and appearance. Again, same genus, different species.

Thanks for the explanation, Shawn. Will the spec sheets for the new Private Stocks made state "Chaltecoco Pernambuco" (Caesalpinia Velutina) as the neck wood to differentiate those from the Paul's 28, Violin Guitar, and Private Stocks where the spec sheet states "Pernambuco" (Caesalpinia Echinata)?

LSchefman
02-21-2013, 11:09 AM
Les...you are totally missing the point on this one. As the PRS Forum's chief apologist, you are always first to jump up and defend the company. We have had some heated arugements about this in the past...although I am glad that we have remained friends.

Bennett, you know I value your friendship very much. I realize there are two points of view. Of course!

I just like tweaking you guys, and I see PRS as being completely upfront here about these Streptococco necks.

And why am I a PRS apologist on this? Because I value PRS for their instruments, not their collector value. I think collector value stuff is a waste of time. Always have. I've said so many times, and I've been 100% consistent.

Also, I will say that PRS sometimes caters to collectors, which I don't think is a good idea, but then I don't run their business. Collectors appear to be fair game, and if they can make a buck on this nonsense, so be it.


Listen...this is what you are missing.....it's not the sound...not the tone...it's the price being paid for a premium wood that is later found to possibly NOT be the premium wood we are paying for. It's the "sinker crap" all over again...

But supposedly you're paying for the wood *because of the tone* it's known for. Just a little reminder. You can't see the...erm...forest for the trees. It's not the name and the rarity that makes it valuable, it's the tone in the first place.

That's what you're missing! Rarity, in and of itself, has zero intrinsic value. An instrument that sounds good is the intrinsic value.

I'm aware of the mythology and the rarity thing that people gladly line up to shell out money for. And I think it's complete lunacy. But that's just me. If you want that, you're surely entitled to it.

But you guys maybe shouldn't really be buying instruments, You should be buying furniture or something. You can find plenty of rare antiques on the market so you can look at them and brag about how rare they are. ;)

Maybe the price of some of this stuff would come down if the mythology wasn't worshipped by people who don't care WHY the myth started in the first place, i.e., tone, and are only interested in the NAME and the status symbol or resale worth.

Hell, if you want to collect rare stuff, just buy an upside down stamp or something. Now there's a scrap of paper worth a zillion dollars....sheesh. Or invest in some RARE cardboard! Baseball cards! That's something the world needs more of...something with no intrinsic value whatsoever except rarity.


Edit.....and to further the arguement....As an example only....if you buy genuine PAF's...you are NOT paying for the actual PAF's tone...you are paying for the mythology and rarity, since we all know the variablility of these pickups.

And you buy them for what? For the privilege of saying, "Wow, these are original PAFs, they don't sound all that great, but they're RARE."

Oh boy!

Which is why I would never in a million, billion, years buy genuine PAFs when I can get something every bit as good, if not better, without paying a premium (and an outrageous one at that!) for someone's old rusty junk.

Dirty Bob
02-21-2013, 11:13 AM
I find the whole tone wood selection process very intriguing...specifically how Brent has been doing his runs...they look amazing and everyone has raved about the combinations.

I see both sides of the arguement here... As long as its disclosed up front I don't see a problem...if it's not then there's an issue.

I can understand being upset if there was a very rare type of wood being used...as is the case here....but having paid attention over the years when steve posts a shot of a body blank or a neck blank with a wholesale price he paid for it, etc....and also recenly having taken a look at a cost for materials breakdown that Ron Thorn posted which included costs for BRW boards (knowing the quality of wood he has his hands on) ....much of the cost is the labor..and who is doing it. A lot of this is paying for the art, the craft and the experience of the craftsmen...which in a way makes a ton of sense...we are paying for the most finely crafted instruments in the world by the top craftsmen...If in the end its built flawlessly, sounds good and looks good...and has the luthiers pedigree..hopefully it will be cherished by those who have managed to get their hands on one.

LSchefman
02-21-2013, 11:21 AM
I find the whole tone wood selection process very intriguing...specifically how Brent has been doing his runs...they look amazing and everyone has raved about the combinations.

I see both sides of the arguement here... As long as its disclosed up front I don't see a problem...if it's not then there's an issue.

I can understand being upset if there was a very rare type of wood being used...as is the case here....but having paid attention over the years when steve posts a shot of a body blank or a neck blank with a wholesale price he paid for it, etc....and also recenly having taken a look at a cost for materials breakdown that Ron Thorn posted which included costs for BRW boards (knowing the quality of wood he has his hands on) ....much of the cost is the labor..and who is doing it. A lot of this is paying for the art, the craft and the experience of the craftsmen...which in a way makes a ton of sense...we are paying for the most finely crafted instruments in the world by the top craftsmen...If in the end its built flawlessly, sounds good and looks good...and has the luthiers pedigree..hopefully it will be cherished by those who have managed to get their hands on one.

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. +1

QueenCityGuitars
02-21-2013, 11:23 AM
Just to keep things on the soul side, the intent of my thread was to inform (particularly myself) and differentiate the nuances (if any) between the old and new Pernambuco neck material. It's nice that we have a source of truth for these types of questions rather than random theories and opinions being posted. No need to pollute the waters with extemporaneous minutiae.

aristotle
02-21-2013, 11:53 AM
I guess the question all boils down to whether people are buying guitars because of the rarity of the materials.

Fine by me if people are buying, at least to some extent, because of the rarity of materials (I don't by the way). If they are, and it sounds to me like that factored to some extent into Twinfan's decision to go with a $1K upcharge, I can see why he's not happy if it turns out that the material used in his instrument wasn't as "rare" as he was led to believe. The argument that the actual matierial doesn't affect tone isn't particularly the point so far as I can see. Afterall, plenty pay more for fancy figured tops, special inlays, etc., and I don't think that too many people think that this affects tone.

I have a vintage LP. The reason I like it is that it's old, and I just like the idea of playing a neat old instrument that has been around the block, played by who knows who, and there just aren't that many left around. My reissue sounds as good (to me) but I'd be bummed if I found that the vintage LP was really some fake aged 4 year old guitar. If that happened, the argument that I should "get over it....it sounds great doesn't it???", wouldn't make much sense to me.

Having said all of that, since I personally don't factor "rarity of matierials" into what gets me jazzed about a guitar, it wouldn't bug me too much. I can see where it would others though.

Shawn@PRS
02-21-2013, 11:57 AM
I have no idea what the specs sheets will say, but the wood is being openly marketed as Chaltecoco. But why Chaltecoco Pernambuco? Because most people (myself included) have no idea that Chaltecoco and Pernambuco are realted. Is it marketing spin? Absolutely, but that's what marketing is supposed to do, get people excited and have them spend some money.

LSchefman
02-21-2013, 12:08 PM
I guess the question all boils down to whether people are buying guitars because of the rarity of the materials.

Fine by me if people are buying, at least to some extent, because of the rarity of materials (I don't by the way). If they are, and it sounds to me like that factored to some extent into Twinfan's decision to go with a $1K upcharge, I can see why he's not happy if it turns out that the material used in his instrument wasn't as "rare" as he was led to believe.

Two things here:

One, this run IS being marketed as chaltemcoccus or whatever it is. They're being upfront! What's the reason for complaint?

No one has said the prior Collection run was streptobucco or whatever. Maybe that will happen, maybe not.

What's going on is that suddenly the guys who bought the PRIOR run of choccebubuccopernie are nervously eyeing their instruments as suddenly not being worth it. So let's recognize what the brouhaha is all about. Anxiety.

It ain't the new run that's the issue. It's the old run that is the elephant in the room.

Two, Twinfan was absolutely raving about his Collection PS Sig Ltd. Said it was much better than the standard model. Told me I should get one, it was that much better.

So if it was good enough to rave about...maybe it doesn't matter which variety of wood it is. Maybe that's worth a grand.

Then again, what do I know? I think the whole thing is a boatload of fish. As was the last sinker thing.

I got a sinker model with artist top, nice case, first class appointments, for less than a 408 mahogany artist pack. And I didn't get a special deal. I paid the standard fare, I was told on VR. Who the hell paid an upcharge even for that one? It was the same price as an artist pack, or less, all along! Nothing to complain about, move along, right?

But I'll say again what did happen: the resale value of these Sig Ltds went into the tank. People killed the value of their own instruments! Nuts. Nuts. Nuts.

Doesn't bother me, I'm keeping mine. If I was Brent, and I had 5 of these Paul PS on order, though, I'd be shaking my head at how goofy people can be about something that's perfectly good.

aristotle
02-21-2013, 12:13 PM
Oh...I wasn't suggesting that it was (or wasn't for that matter) marketed correctly. Just saying that one way or the other, it wasn't what Twinfan was thinking it was, and it's not unreasonable that he might be unhappy if he finds that the neck material wasn't as rare as he thought...regardless of how great the tone is. You might not care about rarity, and I might not either..And for that matter, for all I know, this "other" type of Pernambuco is just as rare.

LSchefman
02-21-2013, 12:26 PM
Oh...I wasn't suggesting that it was (or wasn't for that matter) marketed correctly. Just saying that one way or the other, it wasn't what Twinfan was thinking it was

I do get that part of it. Honest.

I guess myths are better, and worth more, than reality.

Gentlemen, I'm hereby announcing that I'm going into the Streptococcoperniechocca Torch and Pitchfork business!

I'm now taking pre-orders for these rare pitchforks and torches, made of this legendary wood, and they will only be $1000 for the pitchfork, and $500 for the torch. Deposits of 50% required to reserve yours.

In addition, I will be marketing the Official Reproduction Honus Wagner Baseball Card, in a limited run of ten thousand, made of exactly the same cardboard as the famous original! $100,000 each, a fraction of what you'd pay for the original.

For only $50,000 more, each card can be carefully artificially aged into "relic" status to match the look of a card kept in a shoebox in my grandmother's attic for 100 years.

Finally, I will be marketing a reproduction of the original 1909 SVDB penny for only $500 dollars, a third what you'd pay for the real penny in a coin dealer's shop.

PM me for more silly information. ;)

martysnarf
02-21-2013, 12:37 PM
...I guess myths are better, and worth more, than reality.

DING!! We have a WINNER!!

docbennett
02-21-2013, 12:48 PM
Les...let me show you why your arguement has holes in it.

You are familiar with the art world. Your brother is a famous, talented artist.

Let's make an analogy.

I purchase an original Picasso for $1,500,000. I am thrilled...I got a bargain...it's beautiful, it's by a famous artist...I love the picture. I even got a great deal. It's an investment, as well as a decorative fixture for my mansion.

I find out a year later that what I bought was a perfectly executed forgery by an artist who is so talented, you can't tell the difference without knowing. the value of the "knockoff"....$15,000.

According to your logic, I should still be happy, since I still love the picture. the picture is the same....just not the one that was represented to me.


It's not the tone....it's the rarity of the componants. That is the driving principle behind all collecting and relative value. Rarity/scarcity along with desirability of the purported original determine ultimate value. If the original pernambuco was not valued for its intrinsic worth, no one would pay the premium and as a consequence simple supply and demand economics would dictate that there was no upcharge for it. However, the "mythology" of the wood along with scarcity and demand have resulted in significant upchages and value associated with it.

More down to earth example.....would you be happy with a Dali lithograph you paid $3,000 for, only to find that it was not signed by Dali, but was one of the many forged lithos that were mass produced in the late 70's until his death??? The fake would be worth less than $100 bucks, but IT'S THE SAME PICTURE DAMMIT!

I hope I am trying to covey the way collectors and afficianados think....purchases are based on many intrinsic and socially accepted variables, and when these variables are misrepresented, the intent of the buyer has been sabotaged. When PRS markets and sells an item, they totally figure into the equation these principles when developing an MSRP.


Edit....and, this is the reason i got out of rare book collecting of signed copies.....too much damn forgery going around, and too many signatures became too difficult to authenticate. Same book...similiar signatures...but one is real, and the other is fake....hence the dramatic difference in worth. I fail to see the difference between my examples and the "authenticity" of the wood.

LSchefman
02-21-2013, 12:57 PM
Les...let me show you why your arguement has holes in it.

You are familiar with the art world. Your brother is a famous, talented artist.

Let's make an analogy.

I purchase an original Picasso for $1,500,000. I am thrilled...I got a bargain...it's beautiful, it's by a famous artist...I love the picture. I even got a great deal. It's an investment, as well as a decorative fixture for my mansion.

I find out a year later that what I bought was a perfectly executed forgery by an artist who is so talented, you can't tell the difference without knowing. the value of the "knockoff"....$15,000.

According to your logic, I should still be happy, since I still love the picture. the picture is the same....just not the one that was represented to me..

The analogy is silly.

You're getting a genuine PRS - the "Picasso" part. That's no fake. PRS is the "artist" as it were.

You're complaining about the rarity of the paint.

Twinfan
02-21-2013, 01:02 PM
Many thanks for the clarification, Shawn.

So chaltecoco is NOT pernambuco. Adding it to the name does not make it so.

docbennett
02-21-2013, 01:04 PM
The analogy is silly.

You're getting a genuine PRS - the "Picasso" part. That's no fake. PRS is the "artist" as it were.

You're complaining about the rarity of the paint.

I think that the debate is whether the second generation PB is the same as the 1st generation or different. So, I see no difference in the analogy. Are you getting "original PB" or "coco-PB"? As a consequence of this debate, it is now clear that you are paying for a "2nd generation PB that is NOT the same as the 1st generation".

If nothing else, this debate has led to additional knowledge and disclosure about the materials used. I consider my analogies valid.

LSchefman
02-21-2013, 01:08 PM
I think that the debate is whether the second generation PB is the same as the 1st generation or different. So, I see no difference in the analogy. Are you getting "original PB" or "coco-PB"? As a consequence of this debate, it is now clear that you are paying for a "2nd generation PB that is NOT the same as the 1st generation".

If nothing else, this debate has led to additional knowledge and disclosure about the materials used. I consider my analogies valid.

If you'd read the link I posted very early in this thread, you'd have already known that there were two distinct materials involved long before you started your ranting on the subject.

You'd have understood that two species were involved, and this was something PRS themselves identified. There was zero reason for this "debate" in the first place.

There was no reason for the analogy, which by the way, sucked as most analogies do. It exploded like a bad pimple being squeezed. Now there's a better analogy. LOL

markie
02-21-2013, 01:19 PM
Les does not get the "Collecting" of things .................................................. . I get it!

Doc "Collects" Guitars ............................................ I get it!


The Player (real pro) vs Collector thought process has been around as long as I have been buying PRS Guitars. It is somewhat amusing to me that people plunk down 3K for a Guitar when a $500 Guitar can do the same thing the 3K Guitar can .................................... then throw rocks at the "Dumbass" who spent 7K :laugh:


I live in a 4000+ sq ft house. Just me & my lovely Bride. We do not need that much room, but we still live there. I hope my House is not made of glass.........

Both our Vehicles have right at around 100K on them & were purchased used.

My Wife buys nearly all of our clothes from Goodwill. Not underwear or shoes though.......... a guy has to draw the line somewhere :eek:



Moral of the story: Different strokes for different folks :beer:

Dirty Bob
02-21-2013, 01:24 PM
My Wife buys nearly all of our clothes from Goodwill. Not underwear or shoes though.......... a guy has to draw the line somewhere :eek:





What about the bunny slippers?

markie
02-21-2013, 01:27 PM
What about the bunny slippers?


Murali from BAM sent me the Slippers. They were new :rock:

hippietim
02-21-2013, 01:29 PM
The analogy is silly.

You're getting a genuine PRS - the "Picasso" part. That's no fake. PRS is the "artist" as it were.

You're complaining about the rarity of the paint.

Perhaps the analogy isn't perfect. But the point is valid. With pernambuco/sinker mahogany/PS grade maple/etc. there is an expectation that what you are paying for is somehow special (whether it's premium/rare/expensive/whatever). IOW, you are paying for the rarity of the "canvas". You can argue that it doesn't matter because it's a great guitar until you are blue in the face, your opinion of what makes the guitar valuable is only relevant to you. Other people may only be willing to pay the premium price here if they are getting the extra special materials - you can dismiss that sentiment all you want and it still doesn't matter what you think.

What if I sold guitars that were spec'd to have side dots made of Epätosi-Diamonds. Other than our Finnish friends, the expectation most people would have is that the dots would be diamonds. So if the dots were actually Moissanite many people would probably get upset despite the fact that they very often look superior to real diamonds, can be produced without questionable ethics in mining, etc. But if we use your logic here, those people should get over it because it's a great guitar and the Moissanite does just as good a job (if not better) than a real diamond.

LSchefman
02-21-2013, 01:37 PM
Les does not get the "Collecting" of things .................................................. . I get it!...

I get it, actually. I just think that buying a guitar for the neck wood devalues the object of buying a guitar for its inherent musical qualities.



The Player (real pro) vs Collector thought process has been around as long as I have been buying PRS Guitars. It is somewhat amusing to me that people plunk down 3K for a Guitar when a $500 Guitar can do the same thing the 3K Guitar can .................................... then throw rocks at the "Dumbass" who spent 7K :laugh:

Except they don't do exactly the same thing. If you weren't a collector, and if you were a musician using them professionally, maybe you'd understand why people value them for their musical qualities?

Moreover, I'm not saying people being spendy are dumbasses, I have a PS on order. Because it's what I want musically.
And not because I'm a collector.

You can want a fine thing for its inherent quality without it having a damned thing to do with collector BS.


I live in a 4000+ sq ft house. Just me & my lovely Bride. We do not need that much room, but we still live there. I hope my House is not made of glass.........

Both our Vehicles have right at around 100K on them & were purchased used.

My Wife buys nearly all of our clothes from Goodwill. Not underwear or shoes though.......... a guy has to draw the line somewhere :eek:



Moral of the story: Different strokes for different folks :beer:

Different strokes, indeed. Whether this is a tempest in a teapot is another matter.

I'm not sure how the size of one's house figures into this; I also spent 28 years in a very large and expensive house. It was about the same size, on a two acre parcel. Ten of those years after the kids went away to school. But I'm not sure how that applies here? I enjoyed it anyway. But I lived in it, and used it. It served a practical purpose. I raised a family in it.

Dirty Bob
02-21-2013, 01:37 PM
I think Les was simply arguing the logic surrounding "forgery" by a specific artist...which is where I saw the flaw with the analogy...doc presented...focusing on the actual analogy distracts from the point he was attempting to make.

Mark was simply saying different strokes for different folks.

We all can get carried away and lose focus.

This comes down to one issue...is a product for sale being represented clearly and factually to the buyer? Yes or No.

Twinfan
02-21-2013, 01:38 PM
I have no idea what the specs sheets will say, but the wood is being openly marketed as Chaltecoco. But why Chaltecoco Pernambuco? Because most people (myself included) have no idea that Chaltecoco and I are realted. Is it marketing spin? Absolutely, but that's what marketing is supposed to do, get people excited and have them spend some money.

I've just re-read this and I'm a bit shocked. It's very misleading marketing, especially if you're trying to get people to spend many thousands of dollars.

Using the same theory, it's OK to tell people who have never seen a lion that it's a leopard-lion?

I think not.

PRSHB2
02-21-2013, 01:40 PM
Now wait one darn minute hippietim. Are you suggesting that different people can have differing opinions? That's blasphemy!!!

crgtr
02-21-2013, 01:42 PM
This has been a fun read. Please continue.

hippietim
02-21-2013, 01:44 PM
Now wait one darn minute hippietim. Are you suggesting that different people can have differing opinions? That's blasphemy!!!

Crap. I didn't mean to come across like that. What I meant is that we should all conform to what Les thinks is right. :)

LSchefman
02-21-2013, 01:47 PM
Crap. I didn't mean to come across like that. What I meant is that we should all conform to what Les thinks is right. :)

Hahaha! I guess we should. ;)

Or maybe we should all conform to what you, Twinfan, Markie, and Bennett think is right?

Hey, it's a discussion board. I'm discussing.

(or I'm disgusting, take your pick, wait I already know what that is. ;))

rugerpc
02-21-2013, 01:54 PM
Not only that - this entire discussion ruined a perfectly enjoyable story thread elsewhere on the forum before it hardly got off the ground.

11top
02-21-2013, 02:02 PM
Murali from BAM sent me the Slippers. They were new :rock:

Key word highlighted above. :rofl:

Dirty Bob
02-21-2013, 02:05 PM
Using the same theory, it's OK to tell people who have never seen a lion that it's a leopard-lion?



http://dakiniland.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/liger.jpg?w=590

you have it totally wrong...it's a Liger...

markie
02-21-2013, 02:11 PM
Ordering a very expensive PS Guitar & paying for it before you play it................... This just might be tiptoeing over the "Collector" line Les :o


I think we can work with this guy :D :D :D :D

docbennett
02-21-2013, 02:20 PM
Les....you are my friend. I would say this to your face if we were in close proximity. I say this without ANY implied disrespect.

I don't believe you have ever argued against a PRS related marketing strategy. You have always rallied to their support. In truth, this thread developed following the original premise on VR forum...the 2nd generation PB marketing did not make it clear as to the differences between it and first generation. Similar to the ME-2 and the "select dahlbergia". To be honest, my ME-2 dealer actually told me it was BRW when I bought it. That didn't change my opinion of the quality, nor did it devalue it's inherent musical capacity. It just told me that I had paid BRW prices for the equivalent of IRW.

In this situation, the original marketing may have implied "a variant of Pernambuco" but it was never ORIGINALLY clarified that it was from a different strain.

Les...you are a very intelligent man, and a great music producer. I am sure that in your attorney life, you excelled.

It's just that you can't seem to get the premise out of your head that you are on paid retainer to defend teh PRS company. Truth in disclosure...have you ever asked the company to be their corporate counsel? Because I will disclose that I've posted several times publically that I would work for free if they opened a "pre-owned profit center" as long as my "salary" was a portion of the profits. I am subjective in many areas...as are you. It's just that I have NEVER seen you fail to defend PRS...and to me, that loses some credibility since I've never seen you debate the other side of the coin.

In this case...I believe that PRS engaged in deceptive marketing. Does that diminish the company to me? Not really. I am just disappointed in how they market. They change specs so often, and make totally minor "tweaks" so often, I sometimes whether its designed just to create the illusion of progress under Pauls' mythological "Rules of Tone".

Now Les...do you truly believe in all of Paul's Rules of Tone? Do you accept it, the way Moses accepted those 15 (oops, I broke one) I mean 10 commandments? Because the company has left itself open to extremely damaging criticism that I believe is well founded, despite my continued endorsement of the quality of their products.

and by the way...with my Picasso analogy...it's not "comparing the paint"....read the analogy again...the paint may be different, but that is irrelevant to the argument. It's the issue of WHICH artist put paint to canvas. The analogy is relatively valid when you consider "what am I buying" vs. "what is being represented".

I still love the guitars and support the company. But I will be damned if I will defend a position I disagree with. I may be an expert witness, but I will not accept a case in which I KNOW that I am merely being used to obfuscate the obvious evidence and produce an element of doubt when there should be none.

Thanks for allowing me this bully pulpit to spew my opinions from.

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
02-21-2013, 02:20 PM
I was hot for a PS Paul's Guitar when I heard (through the grape-vine) that it would have a Pernambuco neck and black Brazilian Rosewood fretboard.

Now that the specs have been released and I can see that the neck wood is not the traditionally used Pernambuco from Brazil, I no longer want one.

I have enough guitars to last many lifetimes. I was in it for the wood. If that makes me a chump, so be it.

In the future, I hope we (the Official PRS Guitars Forum) are able to get new model info (with detailed specs) at the same time as the dealers so there are no more misunderstandings.

guitarsong
02-21-2013, 02:24 PM
just a thought........without collectors is PRS still in business today?

LSchefman
02-21-2013, 02:29 PM
Ordering a very expensive PS Guitar & paying for it before you play it................... This just might be tiptoeing over the "Collector" line Les :o


I think we can work with this guy :D :D :D :D

Haha! You are right about that. Perhaps I have more collector potential than I'm willing to admit!

But it was the only way to get a maple Tonare! I like the way a maple small jumbo sits in a mix.

Dirty Bob
02-21-2013, 02:31 PM
Again the Debate is about whether or not a product is being misrepresented.

On a side note...I did find myself wondering as I reread this thread what the actual difference in cost per neck blank is wholesale? Again the Ron Thorn post over on the Thorn Forums was very enlightening when summing up the parts versus what most builders/luthiers charge.

I also wonder what the difference of hours worked/labor that goes into a private stock versus production?

martysnarf
02-21-2013, 02:31 PM
just a thought........without collectors is PRS still in business today?

That's actually a REALLY good question!! I think they would, but they would have had an even tougher time surviving 2008 through what continues to appear to be a recession. I believe that PRSh has stated that staying afloat was really hard during 2008-2010. I think PRS would have survived without collectors, because at the heart of it all, his guitars are and have always been marketed as TOOLS FOR PLAYERS. My opinion is that there are more players out there than collectors. Not sure though... just a guess. And not all players can even afford a production PRSi, let alone PS or even Collection instruments.

I think they would still be in biz, but might have had to make some changes to survive through the really lean times. I know that they made some changes that helped- like Wood Library runs- but I would guess that they might not look quite the same as they do now- for better or worse.

Good question man! What do you guys think?

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
02-21-2013, 02:35 PM
Again the Debate is about whether or not a product is being misrepresented.

By whom (the grape-vine or the spec sheet)?

Dirty Bob
02-21-2013, 02:37 PM
the grapevine...I stated that so nobody accused me of derailing the thread any more than it already has been.

Shawn gave a clear answer in his first post.

It was the next post I think that got some individuals fired up.

Tag
02-21-2013, 02:39 PM
Many thanks for the clarification, Shawn.

So chaltecoco is NOT pernambuco. Adding it to the name does not make it so.


Here is the problem for me. Is Chaltecoco commonly called Pernambuco? If so, no problems! Or is PRS is just calling it that to make a connection to "actual" Pernambuco ?(The stuff advertised as being "bow" material, to which I say, who cares anyway? I do not play my guitar with a bow. :biggrin: ) If thats the case, then I feel there is trickery going on, which is not cool. IMO, YMMV and all of that! Oh yea, if they sold the newer wood in the past to people who were told they were getting the older plain Pern., then thats a bigger problem. I am lost as to what is actually going on however! :confused:

hippietim
02-21-2013, 02:43 PM
All of this really doesn't matter when you consider a funny little lady that is best known for saying "coochie-coochie" can kick all of our asses on the guitar and look good doing it.

LSchefman
02-21-2013, 02:48 PM
Les....you are my friend. I would say this to your face if we were in close proximity. I say this without ANY implied disrespect.

I don't believe you have ever argued against a PRS related marketing strategy. You have always rallied to their support.

That is true, you have only seen me defend PRS. Want to know why?

When I disagree with a PRS marketing strategy, or have an issue with a product, I keep it to myself or handle it privately with PRS. Why? I admire PRS the person and the company, and believe that any issue I might have can easily be handled privately. When I agree with them, or think they're being unfairly criticized, I say so.

As to the suggestion in your post that I'm somehow interested in their business, I don't practice any law at all except for my own company, and a couple of folks I have longstanding friendships with, such as my publisher here in Michigan. Even then, that is limited to entertainment law.

I turn away other potential clients. And believe me, I get plenty of calls I turn away. I'm not remotely interested in PRS' legal business, or any legal business for that matter, that I'm not already stuck with.


Now Les...do you truly believe in all of Paul's Rules of Tone??

Yes, I think Paul is correct. Before I read anything about his Rules of Tone, and his argument about guitar making involving subtractive processes, I posted my opinion that guitarmaking reminded me of subtractive synthesis, and that the materials and hardware act as filters in various ways, just as the filters on a Moog synthesizer work to change timbre, attack, decay, sustain, etc.

And playing the instruments, as they've gotten better and better over the years has convinced me even more that he's onto something.

If you don't believe it, that's your prerogative, but why on earth do you participate in a PRS forum that's all about these guitars?


Because the company has left itself open to extremely damaging criticism that I believe is well founded, despite my continued endorsement of the quality of their products.

Nonsense.

And I would say the same to your face. Despite that I think you're wrong, I still love you, though.

Since you're an endorser of their products, of course I'm now waiting for your Artist model, when can we expect it?

Dirty Bob
02-21-2013, 02:50 PM
Since Murali vanished have Markie's bunny slippers increased in value?





ok now I'm derailing...accuse away.

LSchefman
02-21-2013, 02:55 PM
All of this really doesn't matter when you consider a funny little lady that is best known for saying "coochie-coochie" can kick all of our asses on the guitar and look good doing it.

She is awesome!

docbennett
02-21-2013, 02:56 PM
If you don't believe it, that's your prerogative, but why on earth do you participate in a PRS forum that's all about these guitars?

Ya know, I guess I sometimes enjoy the debate itself, more than the initial controversy causing it. And I appreciate your other comments, but will selectively reply to the one above......

I love the guitars...I love the product....I think the company is superior to other guitar manufacturers in several ways.

That being said...I love my children dearly, and continue to do so, now that they've grown, moved out, gotten married, had children of their own, yada yada yada.

However....I never held back with regard to disciplining them when they were growing up..and I never defended them when I knew they were wrong. However they knew they could always (and still can) rely on me to support them regardless, and to love them despite whether I agreed with them or not.

Maybe that was just another dumb analogy...but I stay with the forum because I care for the product....ALMOST as much as I care about the camaraderie I've developed among the various members whom I otherwise would never have met or become familiar with.

docbennett
02-21-2013, 02:59 PM
All of this really doesn't matter when you consider a funny little lady that is best known for saying "coochie-coochie" can kick all of our asses on the guitar and look good doing it.

I am assuming you are referring to Mrs. Xavier Cugat. :laugh:

Tag
02-21-2013, 03:01 PM
.I love my children dearly, and continue to do so, now that they've grown, moved out, gotten married, had children of their own, yada yada yada.

However....I never held back with regard to disciplining them when they were growing up..and I never defended them when I knew they were wrong. However they knew they could always (and still can) rely on me to support them regardless, and to love them despite whether I agreed with them or not.


You are a good man Bennett.

docbennett
02-21-2013, 03:03 PM
You are a good man Bennett.

Thanks very much Tag....but I would be anything that Les gets PM's stating the contrary. :p

LSchefman
02-21-2013, 03:38 PM
Thanks very much Tag....but I would be anything that Les gets PM's stating the contrary. :p

Very few people ever PM me. Mostly it's people responding to my PM'd apologies for pissing them off, since I often open mouth, insert foot.

I'm pretty sure I've never gotten a PM criticizing you, or anyone really, except I've gotten a few criticizing me, and that's to be expected.

In retrospect got carried away criticizing collectors, and for that, I take responsibility. Most of that was meant as sarcasm, but it was unnecessary on my part. I let my emotions play out sometimes, and that's never a good thing.

Collectors, I hereby apologize. I was being unfair in that regard. But I still disagree about the complaints against PRS here.

You know, I recall with the MEII that they pointed out it was "select dalbergia" and not BRW, specifically. The fact that your dealer was in error isn't their fault. Really.

I do think the whole sinker mahogany thing was a tempest in a teapot, and the guitar represents superb value in any case.

And I think they're being upfront about the nature of this Paul's guitar wood.

PRS doesn't need me to defend them. So I'm going to STFU now.

veinbuster
02-21-2013, 03:54 PM
There is a reasonable chance I would have bought one on spec if they had pernumbuco necks. With the neck it has I would need to hear it in real life before committing. I. Have no issue with what they call it.

docbennett
02-21-2013, 04:20 PM
.... I do think the whole sinker mahogany thing was a tempest in a teapot.....

I used to work with a group of Israelis, when we first started up "Rapid Opiate Detox" in the USA. I've come across that idiom many times...but, it doesn't translate well when crossing over languages. :biggrin:

I had three different Israeli guys use that idiom....and each of them used the expression...."It's nothing but a storm in a glass of water". Seriously. :p

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
02-21-2013, 04:21 PM
I'm pretty sure I've never gotten a PM criticizing you, or anyone really, except I've gotten a few criticizing me, and that's to be expected.I'm pretty sure I have received PM's about both of you. People encourage me to let you two duke it out. It's entertaining. :laugh:

For the record, you will rarely, if ever, see a "simmer down" post from me. Either people break the rules are they don't.

Regarding this thread... there are places where you will get banned for calling people on their BS (real or perceived). This isn't one of them. The majority of you guys have done a superb job of looking at the facts and drawing reasonable conclusions. Everything else seems to be based on the joy many of us derive from occasionally locking horns.

Moving forward... it appears as though PRS has created the name Chaltecoco Pernambuco to draw a comparison between the two woods. Gibson makes up wood names all the time. Korina anyone? Baked Maple (gag) ??? The crux of the whole deal (for many) is that the name PRS created can be misleading. So let's set the record straight. Chaltecoco is not the same orange wood (from Brazil) we've come to know as Pernambuco. It might feel/sound the same but it isn't the same. Make your decisions (for whatever reason you decide) accordingly.

Side note:
Remember when Pernambuco was the new "it" wood? I do. There was a Modern Eagle (PS 1638) made with a Pernambuco neck a few years back. It sat at Chuck Levins for quite a while before it finally sold. I loved the top and the color but couldn't deal with that weird orange neck with a long funny name. Man, I sure wish I had that ME now. I am certain I'm not the only one to ask Brian Meader for the owner's contact info so I could offer to buy it.

Live an learn.

http://www.prsguitars.com/privatestock/gallery/img/1638b.jpg

docbennett
02-21-2013, 04:37 PM
I had never even heard of Pernambucco until I spec'ed out my PS 2 years ago and checked the available options. I found it super cool that this was the wood that was used in the highest quality violin bows. For me, it was as learning experience. I would be the first to admit that I bought it due to the rarity and the fact that Brian Meader told me that once gone, it wasn't coming back. He was upfront about it being reserved for the DGT collection series, and I wanted to get in on the opportunity before I regretted losing that chance.

That being said...blindfolded, I couldn't' tell the difference between a PB neck, a BRW neck or the log created by Les Paul with pickups installed. I'm talking about tone of course...I think I might feel the difference between the log and the guitar necks. :p

docbennett
02-21-2013, 04:43 PM
-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©;52603']I'm pretty sure I have received PM's about both of you. People encourage me to let you two duke it out. It's entertaining. :laugh:


http://vimeo.com/25921512

Twinfan
02-21-2013, 04:47 PM
Hans - you make good points about Gibson but they never called something by an existing name. Giving chaltecoco the 'badge' of pernambuco is wrong and designed to mislead.

I have some coal here. Should I sell it to you for jewellery as a Coal Diamond for an inflated price?

LSchefman
02-21-2013, 04:54 PM
I had never even heard of Pernambucco until I spec'ed out my PS 2 years ago and checked the available options. I found it super cool that this was the wood that was used in the highest quality violin bows. For me, it was as learning experience....

That being said...blindfolded, I couldn't' tell the difference between a PB neck, a BRW neck or the log created by Les Paul with pickups installed. I'm talking about tone of course...I think I might feel the difference between the log and the guitar necks. :p

Wait a second...if it was a learning experience, what on earth did you learn if you can't even tell the difference between this and all the other stuff you have? Come to think of it, maybe that's what you learned. That you're wasting your money on this stuff. LOL!!

By the way, pernambuco bows don't always cost $35,000. You can buy them for a grand, and one of the reasons that people use them is they're very resilient and bouncy. That's an important quality in a bow. And it's not the pernambuco that's expensive, it's the artistry and the hand work.

There's so much mythology and nonsense in this whole pernambuco thing.


Hans - you make good points about Gibson but they never called something by an existing name. Giving chaltecoco the 'badge' of pernambuco is wrong and designed to mislead.

I have some coal here. Should I sell it to you for jewellery as a Coal Diamond for an inflated price?

I think you should try. It would be entertaining as hell. :)

"No it wouldn't."

"Yes it would."

"Not at all."

"Yes, most definitely."

wilerty
02-21-2013, 05:11 PM
I have a headache ...

Caveat emptor ...

... and I would like some banana cream pie ...

PRSHB2
02-21-2013, 05:22 PM
I have a headache ...

Caveat emptor ...

... and I would like some banana cream pie ...
Take 2 units of Acetylsalicylic acid and call me in the morning.

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
02-21-2013, 05:39 PM
Hans - you make good points about Gibson but they never called something by an existing name. Giving chaltecoco the 'badge' of pernambuco is wrong and designed to mislead.

Ummm... that's why I said...


-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©;52603']Gibson makes up wood names all the time. Korina anyone? Baked Maple (gag) ??? The crux of the whole deal (for many) is that the name PRS created can be misleading. So let's set the record straight. Chaltecoco is not the same orange wood (from Brazil) we've come to know as Pernambuco. It might feel/sound the same but it isn't the same.


Please read my posts before you call me out, by name.


I have some coal here. Should I sell it to you for jewellery as a Coal Diamond for an inflated price?

I have a middle finger here. Should I hold it up and declare that you're number one? I would appreciate it if you'd direct your frustration elsewhere. I'm not taking sides.

Dirty Bob
02-21-2013, 05:40 PM
I have a headache ...

Caveat emptor ...

... and I would like some banana cream pie ...
http://food.sndimg.com/img/recipes/14/97/9/large/picCUBCXa.jpg

your wish is my command!

Twinfan
02-21-2013, 05:46 PM
Sorry Hans - I wasn't trying to get your back up. I'm very angry that this whole 'badging of wood' issue has arisen again after the sinker-gate fiasco and posted carelessly. I got burned with my purchases that time, but this time I seem to have just escaped it.

I'm off to be angry away from the internet.

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
02-21-2013, 05:53 PM
Sorry HansApology accepted, brother.

I, too, am going to take a break from the net tonight. See you guys tomorrow.

Tag
02-21-2013, 08:20 PM
By the way, pernambuco bows don't always cost $35,000. You can buy them for a grand, and one of the reasons that people use them is they're very resilient and bouncy. That's an important quality in a bow. And it's not the pernambuco that's expensive, it's the artistry and the hand work.

There's so much mythology and nonsense in this whole pernambuco thing.




I have posted this several times and have never gotten an answer. Why would people think a wood that is used for violin bows think it would be a good wood for guitar necks??? If it was, the violin makers would have used it for neck wood. They did not. They used maple. Spruce for the tops most of the time. PRS also offers that, so why arent those guitars called violin guitars? My Johnny Smith and Buscarino are made out of those woods. They do not sound like violins to me either, nor would I want them to. If I wanted a violins tone, I would play one. And even then, I would want a maple neck, not a Pernambuco. :o WHEW!! Now I feel a LOT better. Good night kids! :shakehands:

Tim
02-21-2013, 09:14 PM
extemporaneous minutiae.

Sound like a good name for a prog jazz fusion trio!!!! :)

DISTORT6
02-22-2013, 06:37 AM
A doctor and a lawyer bickering about PRSi.
Nope, no stereotypes here. :D


Honestly, this one fun thread.

docbennett
02-22-2013, 07:00 AM
A doctor and a lawyer bickering about PRSi.
Nope, no stereotypes here. :D


Honestly, this one fun thread.

Les and I love to debate....It allows him to relive his days as a cross examiner, and allows me to relive my expert witness days at the same time!

It reminds me of the old Saturday night skit paroding "Point-Counter Point"

In my best "Dan Ackroyd voice"

"Les....you ignorant slut!" :biggrin:

BTW...I am a Ph.D. I am told that it stands for Phony Doctor! ;)

MOBirds
02-22-2013, 09:08 AM
"BTW...I am a Ph.D. I am told that it stands for Phony Doctor!"

Whoa!!! You mean you're not a real Doctor!?!? I mean, I bought into the whole DocBennet thing under the impression you were a REAL Doctor, now I find out you're a "Phony Doctor" and I'm blah blah.... ;)

Sorry, couldn't resist. :D

docbennett
02-22-2013, 09:17 AM
"BTW...I am a Ph.D. I am told that it stands for Phony Doctor!"

Whoa!!! You mean you're not a real Doctor!?!? I mean, I bought into the whole DocBennet thing under the impression you were a REAL Doctor, now I find out you're a "Phony Doctor" and I'm blah blah.... ;)

Sorry, couldn't resist. :D

Phony Doctor, phony musician, phony audiophile. Just a poser who hangs out anonymously on the internet, sticking his nose into other people's business and trying to "appear cool". Even a phony name....as many on this forum think my name is "Ned"....or "The Destroyer".

Oh well.....back to the internet, trolling as a "French Model". :flute:


http://cdn.ispot.tv/image/ad/7VOE~10~800.jpg

kingsleyd
02-22-2013, 09:36 AM
BTW...I am a Ph.D. I am told that it stands for Phony Doctor! ;)

Hey... ...I'm that kind of doctor too!

Funny, I was hanging out with Ken Parker and Steve Kimock last night. Happened to have my Collection #004 with me and the topic of pernambuco came up. Ken is quite familiar with the violin world, and he wondered if the neck blanks PRS was using were the same stuff that the real high-end bows are made from. Mainly because the wood used for the top-end bows often comes in much smaller blanks, often from branches rather than the main trunk of the tree, so you wouldn't be able to get a blank big enough to use for a guitar neck. But also because of the cost -- when a relatively small piece becomes a $10,000 to $25,000 violin bow, it doesn't seem very cost-efficient to turn a much larger piece into a guitar neck when the marginal value is going to be far, far less.

In any event, neither KP nor SK are especially impressed by PRS in general, or in guitars made from any sort of collectible/unobtanium wood. But both were quite impressed with Collection #004, at least as impressed as a couple of very experienced guitar people can be when playing an unfamiliar instrument for 5 minutes up in the green room without an amplifier around.

Of course, once my Ken Parker Archtop, which Ken had just returned to me, came out of the case, the PRS was quickly forgotten. As it happens, the wood used for the back and sides of that guitar came from a beam that was originally part of an R.J. Reynolds tobacco-drying barn built in the mid 1800s in Lexington, KY. It's tulip poplar. That's right: poplar! (or a variant thereof) Not exactly what you'd expect in a high-$$$ "archtop." But it sounds fabulous -- everyone who has played that guitar, including the likes of Kimock and Torn, has freaked out about it.

FWIW, sitting there listening to Kimock and Parker talk about guitars, along with the show that Kimock's band put on, was my idea of a great way to spend an evening. :)

Mikegarveyblues
02-22-2013, 09:39 AM
Not only that - this entire discussion ruined a perfectly enjoyable story thread elsewhere on the forum before it hardly got off the ground.

Ahhh... The penny drops... Was looking forward to joining in with that one.

Although... This is fun too.

kingsleyd
02-22-2013, 09:43 AM
-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©;52603']]
Side note:
Remember when Pernambuco was the new "it" wood? I do. There was a Modern Eagle (PS 1638) made with a Pernambuco neck a few years back. It sat at Chuck Levins for quite a while before it finally sold. I loved the top and the color but couldn't deal with that weird orange neck with a long funny name. Man, I sure wish I had that ME now. I am certain I'm not the only one to ask Brian Meader for the owner's contact info so I could offer to buy it.

Live an learn.

http://www.prsguitars.com/privatestock/gallery/img/1638b.jpg

I came SOOOO close to buying that guitar when it was new... ...wish I had...

Dirty Bob
02-22-2013, 09:57 AM
Kinglsey....Ken makes some absolutely amazing guitars! I've been drooling over them recently. Hey if that collection isn't getting enough love you could always send it over to me!!!


You make an extremely valid point about the economic potential of a blank. Which again gets me wondering...what do they go for wholesale?

LSchefman
02-22-2013, 09:57 AM
As it happens, the wood used for the back and sides of that guitar came from a beam that was originally part of an R.J. Reynolds tobacco-drying barn built in the mid 1800s in Lexington, KY.

It's interesting, though; KP says to you he's not interested in unobtainium wood, but then makes sure you know that his special piece of poplar comes from a 150 year old barn from Kentucky blah blah.

If that ain't a "special" piece of wood, well...let's just say there's some irony in the explanation.

I really like Kimock; he's a very nice guy. Don't know KP. I'm sure he's a smart fellow.

Twinfan
02-22-2013, 09:59 AM
It's interesting, though; KP says to you he's not interested in unobtainium wood, but then makes sure you know that his special piece of poplar comes from a 150 year old barn from Kentucky blah blah.

I must admit, that made me chuckle too!

LSchefman
02-22-2013, 10:02 AM
I must admit, that made me chuckle too!

The world is full of contradictions. ;)

LSchefman
02-22-2013, 10:07 AM
Kinglsey....Ken makes some absolutely amazing guitars! I've been drooling over them recently. Hey if that collection isn't getting enough love you could always send it over to me!!!


You make an extremely valid point about the economic potential of a blank. Which again gets me wondering...what do they go for wholesale?

The reason they use branches on the violin bows is because they can make use of the natural springiness of the branch.

The trunk wood used in a guitar neck has different properties, and probably wouldn't make as good a bow.

And incidentally, most people do not pay a tenth of $35,000 for a pernie bow.

Dirty Bob
02-22-2013, 10:23 AM
The reason they use branches on the violin bows is because they can make use of the natural springiness of the branch.

The trunk wood used in a guitar neck has different properties, and probably wouldn't make as good a bow.

And incidentally, most people do not pay a tenth of $35,000 for a pernie bow.

I spent a little time online this morning just looking around to get a feel for cost...from the little I could see it's all over the place....and this also goes for the bow blanks (which were fractions of what some bows were selling for)...it seems that there is debate also whether or not many of the suppliers' stock is in fact legitimate...I am sure the experts in the know have their direct connections and don't putter around on the internet for price comparisons,etc.......I came to the conclusion for me personally I could give a rat's ass whether or not it's made from petrified dinosaur excrement or deck planks...as long as it sounds good...to me its about how the luthier crafts the instrument...its the sum of the parts and the end result that matters to me...everyone is entitled to their opinion and their own personal keys to satisfaction...mine has always been about chasing the most toneful instrument I can get my hands on. I look at the dollars I spend paying for the artistry and the craft...and I guess ultimately the judgement of the luthier as to what wood works the best and what doesnt for a particular instrument. (That being said I have guitars with Brazzy necks and boards....and odd wood combinations because I like to see what different combinations sound like for myself...but its about the sound more so than what its made from). I really dig Black Limba these days...or rather a guitar made from it crafted by a luthier...obviously because I can't play a hunk of wood itself!

kingsleyd
02-22-2013, 10:24 AM
It's interesting, though; KP says to you he's not interested in unobtainium wood, but then makes sure you know that his special piece of poplar comes from a 150 year old barn from Kentucky blah blah.

If that ain't a "special" piece of wood, well...let's just say there's some irony in the explanation.

I really like Kimock; he's a very nice guy. Don't know KP. I'm sure he's a smart fellow.

Actually I saw it when it was still a big hunk of what used to be a beam from a barn. It came in while I wasn't officially a "client" -- at the time, I was just a friend and, actually, a bit of a "test mule" inasmuch as my NH residence was about an hour's drive from KP's shop and he would call and ask me to come down and play a guitar he'd finished so he could hear how it sounded. Or, a couple of times, to test drive some new brand of strings that he was considering. Ken had messed with a couple of slabs from another beam from the same barn and was all excited because they aced his set of tests he has for whether a piece of wood will make a "good" guitar by his standards. So he bought this beam.

To be honest, while I loved the Kentucky connection as well as the fact that the wood is green -- the color green, not "unseasoned" -- I was skeptical. (Poplar? really?) Until he built one guitar from it for another client. I played that alongside a couple from more traditional woods (maple and mahogany) and strongly gravitated to the poplar one out of those three.

So: no irony involved. At least inasmuch as there was no salesmanship going on. ;)

Ken and Kimock are cut from the same cloth. Highly intelligent. Very direct, no BS. Always call something what it really is. Very little tolerance for the kind of wishful/fantasy/delusional thinking that permeates the guitar world. Both are hard-core scientists in their thought patterns.

And both are delightful people who make my world a much better place as a result of my friendship with them.

Dirty Bob
02-22-2013, 10:31 AM
Must be pretty cool to hang with Ken Parker like that!

LSchefman
02-22-2013, 10:49 AM
.I came to the conclusion for me personally I could give a rat's ass whether or not it's made from petrified dinosaur excrement or deck planks...as long as it sounds good...to me its about how the luthier crafts the instrument...its the sum of the parts and the end result that matters to me..

That's my take-away as well. It's about the instrument, how it's crafted, how the bits and parts and pieces are selected and put together that makes it "art".

And not so much about the magical stuff like whether it was sourced from the bottom of Loch Ness.

Edit:

What makes PRS guitars so good (in my opinion)? I believe it's not because Paul R. Smith personally crafts them; it's because Paul R. Smith trained others very well in his methods, created systems to reproduce what he does, and makes sure that his methods are followed. That is why each PRS feels like it comes from the master himself. It doesn't matter so much which person did what on the guitar; it's the complete package.

He's a heck of a good mentor.

I think I relate to this mentoring thing because I trained the young lawyers who joined my firm 20 years ago when I was still practicing.

Also I realize this edit has nothing to do with the topic in the thread. LOL

LSchefman
02-22-2013, 11:10 AM
So: no irony involved. At least inasmuch as there was no salesmanship going on. ;).

The salesmanship isn't the irony. It's that he was enthusiastic about a particular bunch of wood that was HIS find, while at the same time, pooh-poohing the idea of special wood that other builders use.

It just kind of cracked me up.

And it's so typical of an individualistic, creative guy.

docbennett
02-22-2013, 11:35 AM
The world is full of contradictions. ;)

"No it t'isn't"

"Yes it t'is"

"No, it t'isn't"

"Yes it t'is"

"You can't just gainsay everything and call it a contradiction!"

"Yes I can!"

:biggrin::biggrin:

QueenCityGuitars
02-22-2013, 11:50 AM
Caveat emptor
I think this thread has created Caveat venditor, Bill.


Sound like a good name for a prog jazz fusion trio!!!! :)
Is that like the Free Form Jazz Odyssey in Spinal Tap?!

http://thewebtheologian.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/thumbsdown-spinal-tap.jpg

kingsleyd
02-22-2013, 11:58 AM
The salesmanship isn't the irony. It's that he was enthusiastic about a particular bunch of wood that was HIS find, while at the same time, pooh-poohing the idea of special wood that other builders use.

It just kind of cracked me up.

And it's so typical of an individualistic, creative guy.

I can see having that reaction to the story as told, but I don't think with Ken it has anything to do with the "specialness" per se. That wood only happened because one of Ken's wood suppliers sent him a couple of already-cut pieces, saying, "I think you might be interested in this." It was only after Ken did his testing routine with it that he started to think "hey, this might make a really good guitar!" Even then, he was quite aware that it wouldn't be an easy sell to his client base since the only reputation poplar has in the guitar universe is as a cheap substitute for alder in F-style bolt-on solidbody guitars.

And I don't think Ken automatically pooh-poohs much of anything (well, he's pretty dismissive of the idea that the nut has any effect on the sound of a guitar, but that's a result of lots of experience and testing); in fact, he's quite fond of pernambuco himself and has used it for fingerboards and other wooden bits on several guitars. (his necks are a whole nother universe; that is one of the coolest things about the guitar but they aren't a solid hunk of wood, that's for sure) But rarity or exclusivity, in and of itself, is just kinda lost on Ken. For him, it's all about what works in the context of the whole package.

And, bottom line: he was pretty impressed with the Collection guitar. One thing he didn't like, though: "Why did they cover up the pernambuco with that soot-rubbed finish? It's such a pretty color, it's a shame to make it all dark like that!" (he did however love the way the soot worked on the maple top)

markie
02-22-2013, 12:14 PM
So, What is the verdict?


Is this wood Chaltecoco or is it Pernambuco?




Seems that we can all agree it is not both..........

kingsleyd
02-22-2013, 01:09 PM
Is this wood Chaltecoco or is it Pernambuco?


I assume by "this wood" you're referring to the wood used from prior to this news about using chaltecoco, i.e., the wood used on a bunch of our guitars that was described as "pernambuco." Correct? I would be curious to know as well, not so much because I have any particular issue with how it was sold to me, but because I simply like to know what's in my stuff.

Twinfan
02-22-2013, 01:13 PM
All Collection VI/PS Paul's Guitars and anything in the future badged as "chaltecoco pernambuco" are in fact made from just "chaltecoco". This has been confirmed by Shawn here on the forum, and in an email I received from PRS Customer Services.

I'm assuming that all "pernambuco" badged guitars prior to Collection VI instruments were made from actual pernambuco. I seem to recall there was one tree that Paul acquired which was set to provide around 100 neck blanks. It looks like those 100 have now been made into instruments. I would very much like PRS to confirm this is the case.

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
02-22-2013, 02:48 PM
I had a meeting with Jack, Paul, and Judy a little over an hour ago. To the best of my ability, I presented your concerns as well as my own. Yes, I am a PRS fanboi but I pulled no punches. Doing so would serve no one. It wasn't fun but I have to believe it was worth it.

All points were discussed in great detail and I feel certain that PRS leadership understands the issue. They WANTED to understand the issue and listened carefully. Paul and Jack made some compelling points I had not considered but they also did a good job of trying to understand alternate opinions. That is more than I could have hoped to accomplish.

What they do with the information (from here on out) is not my business nor is it my responsibility to relay. I am not a compensated representative of the company. As such, I will subtract myself from the middle position and leave all responses (along with questions they might generate) to them.

I have no visibility into what they will say or when they will say it. I can can only assure you that I get the impression they care very deeply about getting this right - for personal and professional reasons. No man wants to live a life where his integrity is in question. I sincerely hope their response, whenever that may come, set's a course for new possibilities and a renewed sense faith.

Tag
02-22-2013, 02:55 PM
All Collection VI/PS Paul's Guitars and anything in the future badged as "chaltecoco pernambuco" are in fact made from just "chaltecoco". This has been confirmed by Shawn here on the forum, and in an email I received from PRS Customer Services.

I'm assuming that all "pernambuco" badged guitars prior to Collection VI instruments were made from actual pernambuco. I seem to recall there was one tree that Paul acquired which was set to provide around 100 neck blanks. It looks like those 100 have now been made into instruments. I would very much like PRS to confirm this is the case.


My question is how can they call it pernambuco at all? If that name is not used in the forestry or wood industries for Chaltecoco, isnt that flat out incorrect? I have searched the net as well and can find no connection. Can someone post a link to where it shows Chaltecoco being called Pernambuco?

geese_com
02-22-2013, 03:33 PM
Thanks for voicing the concerns, Hans. I will be interested to see what the reply is.

Dirty Bob
02-22-2013, 03:44 PM
Thanks Hans...good job.

daa2202
02-22-2013, 03:47 PM
Hans,

I am impressed that you did this and I look forward to any official response with interest.

Thank you.

LSchefman
02-22-2013, 04:02 PM
What is great about this forum, and about Hans', James', Jamie's and Shawn's stewardship in particular, is that all points of view are allowed to be expressed, and that PRS takes notice.

Whatever the outcome of this issue, I think it's great that a meeting happened and that these various points of view are being discussed.

Good work, Hans!

Paul
02-22-2013, 04:57 PM
First of all, let me start by saying I apologize for any confusion. It was not my intention to mislead or confuse anyone. We have changed all references on our site to reflect Chaltecoco and Pernambuco as two separate specifications. As a back story, Pernambuco (Caesalpinia echinata) and Chaltecoco (Caesalpinia velutina) are of the same genus: Caesalpinia. They are different species. These woods sound and work the same, but the color of Chaltecoco is a lighter orange. We are always searching for new, quality tone woods, and we are very pleased to have this wood to make musical instruments. Again, it was not our intention to be misleading, and we have changed all references on our site.

To those customers who have bought guitars with a specification of Pernambuco, that is exactly what you have. The only guitars we have shipped with Chaltecocoa are the international Collection instruments previously listed to have Chaltacocoa/Pernambuco.

As always, I appreciate your support.

Paul

Twinfan
02-22-2013, 05:01 PM
Many thanks for the clarification Paul :)

Thanks also to Hans for representing all us consumers :)

PRSHB2
02-22-2013, 05:07 PM
:congrats:

geese_com
02-22-2013, 05:13 PM
Thanks for clarifying, Paul!

kingsleyd
02-22-2013, 06:02 PM
Thanks, Paul!

11top
02-22-2013, 06:49 PM
:top:

Tag
02-22-2013, 07:01 PM
We have changed all references on our site to reflect Chaltecoco and Pernambuco as two separate specifications.

Paul

PERFECT! That is all that needed to be done. :rock:


EDIT: Done from this point forward thats is. I still feel as though PRS was intentionally trying to fool people, which as of today, is still leaving a bad taste in my mouth. :(

docbennett
02-22-2013, 07:22 PM
The 3rd largest producer of guitars in the USA.....and the founder and chief honcho takes the time personally to address the issue to us guys in less than 48 hours from the moment it became a source of potential controversy.

I am quite favorably impressed. Thank you Mr. Smith for demonstrating the degree of personal concern expressed and displayed here. Agree or disagree....no one can argue about the guy's class. You can argue about his avatar....but as far as class....top notch. The avatar..... well, that's another thread. :)

Dirty Bob
02-22-2013, 07:37 PM
Thank you Paul. Also a big thank you to Shawn and Hans. You are all class acts. Actions like this go a long way to show just how much you folks care about your customers and the community that has grown around your craft. :beer:

DISTORT6
02-22-2013, 07:43 PM
And there you have it.
Thanks again, Paul.

sergiodeblanc
02-22-2013, 08:17 PM
You guys wouldn't keep having these issues if you just realized that CE's are the bestest guitars ever!

Steph
02-22-2013, 08:48 PM
The 3rd largest producer of guitars in the USA.....and the founder and chief honcho takes the time personally to address the issue to us guys in less than 48 hours from the moment it became a source of potential controversy.

I am quite favorably impressed. Thank you Mr. Smith for demonstrating the degree of personal concern expressed and displayed here. Agree or disagree....no one can argue about the guy's class. You can argue about his avatar....but as far as class....top notch. The avatar..... well, that's another thread. :)

Well said. And indeed a very remarkable exemple of corporate responsability and commitment to customers.
I am very impressed. Bravo for the candeur.

MA Pete
02-22-2013, 09:54 PM
Wow, I just got done reading 7 pages of this on VR/BAM, and 7 pages over here, I am exhausted! :D Glad the story had a happy ending with Paul setting the record straight.

At the risk of being put in the PRS-Fanboy bucket with Les ;), this sort of stuff hasn't really bothered me over my five years of collecting and enjoying PRSi.

My Eriza Verde Sig Ltd with the "Sinker" Neck had great tone, it was quite something. A lot of it came from the neck wood, you could FEEL it! Altoidman here has that guitar now, he loves it too.

I dug it so much, I spec'ed my Jade PS DC 245 Ted with a Sinker Neck as well, but I got the chance to hand-pick the neck blank, Eric from Willcutt's and Paul himself helped me, and the Jade Glow DC 245 Ted is the best sounding guitar I have ever owned. Do I care that Sinker Mahogany is now called Select Mahogany? Heck no, it sounds AWESOME!

Funny story on my incoming Aquamarine DC 245 Sig, Eric and I had picked a piece of the lightweight Curly Mahogany for the neck, the kind from the Wood Library with the nice figuring like my TGS Earth Cu24. Paul came in and we checked out a bunch more different Mahogany necks, and he was rattling off the names of different species and the stories of where it came from, and we narrowed it down to three or four necks, and then from there narrowed it down to the final two. And then Paul declared, "well, the one you and Eric started with is the best one!" I agreed re tone as well, but so great for Paul to take the time to try a bunch of different ones and help me pick, as a result I felt so much more confident with the selection. That guitar is inbound, can't wait to hear how it sounds!

From my experience over the past five years, I am starting believe the neck species and the individual piece of wood is about the most important selection of wood re tone for a guitar.

Anyway, the point of my story above is that I appreciate Paul's (and his team's) passion for constantly trying to find woods that sound amazing, in a world where supplies run out and it is tough to find new sources of good stuff out there. Is he a Marketeer? Sure, a great one. But take it from a guy who has been through 60 or so PRSi in the past four years, and 5 of those Private Stocks with 4 more PS's on the way, when Paul says something is a premium wood in a special model (like the Sig Ltd) or in the Private Stock Program, it is indeed something special. And I will keep trying out stuff Paul recommends as the best available and my favorite two pushers help me hand-pick.

Will Paul and team be a little more careful in the future after Sinker-gate and this here over the past few days? Likely so. So the concerns expressed here are probably healthy for all in that regard.

(And this is all way better than fake Rosewood Boards from unnamed alternative guitar makers, any day of the week!) ;)

My 2 cents FWIW...

-Pete

LSchefman
02-22-2013, 10:21 PM
At the risk of being put in the PRS-Fanboy bucket with Les ;), this sort of stuff hasn't really bothered me over my five years of collecting and enjoying PRS

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i332/lschefman/Wooden_bucket_zpsd4b6b0d1.jpg

docbennett
02-23-2013, 07:04 AM
OK...now that the story has a happy ending...who'se gonna tell Paul that his avatar sucks and he needs to change it? (Hans....got that 55th card?) I mean c'mon....you're better than that Paul! :flute:

We need a "Change Paul's Avatar" Thread!!
:biggrin::biggrin:

LSchefman
02-23-2013, 08:21 AM
OK...now that the story has a happy ending...who'se gonna tell Paul that his avatar sucks and he needs to change it? (Hans....got that 55th card?) I mean c'mon....you're better than that Paul! :flute:

We need a "Change Paul's Avatar" Thread!!
:biggrin::biggrin:

"He needs to change it."

"No he doesn't."

"He does."

"No, he doesn't."

"Yes, it needs to go."

"Nope."

"Does."

"Doesn't."

"Needs to change it."

"Change what?"

LSchefman
02-23-2013, 10:35 AM
C'mon...it looks a little bit like how "The Walking Dead" might portray Elvis.....Paul's avatar should be the original Carlos Doubleneck....or the 1st Dragon....or even this.....

Time's up. If you want another argument, it's going to cost you 5 pounds.

docbennett
02-23-2013, 10:40 AM
Time's up. If you want another argument, it's going to cost you 5 pounds.

I already told you...I've paid you already!!

LSchefman
02-23-2013, 10:56 AM
I already told you...I've paid you already!!

I'm sorry, it's out of the question.

docbennett
02-23-2013, 11:03 AM
I'm sorry, it's out of the question.

"I've most certainly paid you"


Stupid Git! Your type makes me puke....you stinking, toffee nosed malodorous Pervert.

LSchefman
02-23-2013, 11:05 AM
"I've most certainly paid you"


Stupid Git! Your type makes me puke....you stinking, toffee nosed malodorous Pervert.

Miss Jones? Would you please send in my next argument? Thank you.

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
02-23-2013, 11:31 AM
I'm going to create a thread called Les & Bennett's Playhouse and move all of these posts over there.

kingsleyd
02-23-2013, 11:49 AM
-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©;53097']I'm going to create a thread called Les & Bennett's Playhouse and move all of these posts over there.

Just riffin' on some Monty Python.

Waiting for some Firesign Theatre, myself. ;)

Egads
02-23-2013, 11:51 AM
You guys wouldn't keep having these issues if you just realized that CE's are the bestest guitars ever!

Hey Sergio, I just heard a rumor that the PTC is going to start offering sinker Chaltecoco replacement necks for certain year runs of CEs...:flute:

vchizzle
02-23-2013, 12:41 PM
http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i332/lschefman/Wooden_bucket_zpsd4b6b0d1.jpg
What kind of wood is that bucket? :hello:

vchizzle
02-23-2013, 12:54 PM
Glad things are cleared up with Paul's reply, hopefully this is the last of situations such as this.

LSchefman
02-23-2013, 01:28 PM
Just riffin' on some Monty Python.

Waiting for some Firesign Theatre, myself. ;)

On a personal note, I'm waiting for the electrician, or someone like him.

Follow in your book and repeat after me, as we learn three new words in Turkish...'towel'...'bath'...'border'..."

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
02-23-2013, 03:03 PM
Glad things are cleared up with Paul's reply, hopefully this is the last of situations such as this.
+1

LSchefman
02-23-2013, 07:54 PM
Glad things are cleared up with Paul's reply, hopefully this is the last of situations such as this.

Thank goodness!

Now we can get back to arguing about important things, like the number of truss rod screws, whether you can really hear the difference between BRW and IRW fingerboards, opaque vs stained tops, and other earthshaking stuff.

Rango
02-23-2013, 10:34 PM
Glad things are cleared up with Paul's reply, hopefully this is the last of situations such as this.


-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©;53135']+1

+2

Man I'm glad I only have a "beer" budget for guitars...I don't have to worry about wood genus! :biggrin:

Sounds Good? Looks Good? I'm Good! :top:

jcha008
02-23-2013, 10:51 PM
Glad things are cleared up with Paul's reply, hopefully this is the last of situations such as this.

+3

docbennett
02-24-2013, 07:42 AM
But what of the Leprechaun? Oh wait....that's another thread.

Brad737
03-03-2013, 01:26 PM
FRICKING GORGEOUS!!!!!




-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©;52603']I'm pretty sure I have received PM's about both of you. People encourage me to let you two duke it out. It's entertaining. :laugh:

For the record, you will rarely, if ever, see a "simmer down" post from me. Either people break the rules are they don't.

Regarding this thread... there are places where you will get banned for calling people on their BS (real or perceived). This isn't one of them. The majority of you guys have done a superb job of looking at the facts and drawing reasonable conclusions. Everything else seems to be based on the joy many of us derive from occasionally locking horns.

Moving forward... it appears as though PRS has created the name Chaltecoco Pernambuco to draw a comparison between the two woods. Gibson makes up wood names all the time. Korina anyone? Baked Maple (gag) ??? The crux of the whole deal (for many) is that the name PRS created can be misleading. So let's set the record straight. Chaltecoco is not the same orange wood (from Brazil) we've come to know as Pernambuco. It might feel/sound the same but it isn't the same. Make your decisions (for whatever reason you decide) accordingly.

Side note:
Remember when Pernambuco was the new "it" wood? I do. There was a Modern Eagle (PS 1638) made with a Pernambuco neck a few years back. It sat at Chuck Levins for quite a while before it finally sold. I loved the top and the color but couldn't deal with that weird orange neck with a long funny name. Man, I sure wish I had that ME now. I am certain I'm not the only one to ask Brian Meader for the owner's contact info so I could offer to buy it.

Live an learn.

http://www.prsguitars.com/privatestock/gallery/img/1638b.jpg

tabl10s
07-26-2013, 03:39 PM
I have no idea what the specs sheets will say, but the wood is being openly marketed as Chaltecoco. But why Chaltecoco Pernambuco? Because most people (myself included) have no idea that Chaltecoco and Pernambuco are realted. Is it marketing spin? Absolutely, but that's what marketing is supposed to do, get people excited and have them spend some money.

Like the "Treatment Of Extreme Awesomeness"?
"

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
07-26-2013, 05:05 PM
Like the "Treatment Of Extreme Awesomeness"?
"

What's with the trolling? If you have something you'd like to discuss regarding the "Rosewood Treatment of Extreme Awesomeness" then start a new thread about it or add to one of the existing threads.

Shawn@PRS
07-26-2013, 05:12 PM
Like the "Treatment Of Extreme Awesomeness"?
"

It's simple, ask the customers who've had The Rosewood Treatment of Extreme Awesomeness on their guitars.