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sergiodeblanc
05-05-2012, 01:04 PM
What ever happened to them, and why the switch?
I know some people complained about the strings "slipping", but that has never happened to me in 18+ years. (maybe I'm lucky) I use 10's and was wondering if they had a tendency to slip on smaller strings or what?

I love these tuners so much I would put them on all my guitars if it were not cost prohibitive for me.
I can break a string in a verse of a song and replace one by the chorus, they were/are just genius .... to me.

I know I must be in the minority about this, and many other things (HFS and rotary switching?, bolt-on necks, anyone?) but I am just curious about the how and why of this "evolution" of the Phase tuners.

At the end of my rainbow, there is a pot of gold winged tuners. :D

Thanks for any information.

gag halfrunt
05-05-2012, 01:10 PM
The Phase IIs were just so much easier to change strings on. Plus no learning curve. And they are sleek looking.

All in all, they are just a better product. I liked them so much, I bought several aftermarket sets and replaced vintage tuners on my PRSi with them.

AP515
05-05-2012, 01:56 PM
The Phase IIs were just so much easier to change strings on. Plus no learning curve. And they are sleek looking.

All in all, they are just a better product. I liked them so much, I bought several aftermarket sets and replaced vintage tuners on my PRSi with them.
I like the winged tuners but the phase 2's are better IMO.

I'd like to put them on my McCarty, how did you do it when the McCarty has a thicker headstock? I didn't think they fit. Did you have to drill new screw holes?

gag halfrunt
05-05-2012, 02:33 PM
The Phase IIs were just so much easier to change strings on. Plus no learning curve. And they are sleek looking.

All in all, they are just a better product. I liked them so much, I bought several aftermarket sets and replaced vintage tuners on my PRSi with them.
I like the winged tuners but the phase 2's are better IMO.

I'd like to put them on my McCarty, how did you do it when the McCarty has a thicker headstock? I didn't think they fit. Did you have to drill new screw holes?
I only play Singlecuts, so I don't know about the potential McCarty headstock thickness issue.

I did have to drill new holes for the vintage tuners. But the Phase IIs are a drop in replacement for the winged locking tuners.

NUCCIOPAL
05-05-2012, 02:45 PM
Hey Sergio,
You could greatly help the 'winged tuners" cause by posting a video on how to change strings with it :D
I just got a beautiful CE22 and I'm terrorized of changing the strings after all I read about it.
You'll be my hero if you do it!

RickO
05-05-2012, 03:26 PM
I love the winged tuners. Great design and very stable. They are my favorites.

sergiodeblanc
05-05-2012, 03:27 PM
Hey Sergio,
You could greatly help the 'winged tuners" cause by posting a video on how to change strings with it :D
I just got a beautiful CE22 and I'm terrorized of changing the strings after all I read about it.

Not mine, but here you go!
[youtube:3e36y3ba]2i0UdP55g3A[/youtube:3e36y3ba]

He seems to have a little more trouble than I do, but you get the hang of it pretty quick, and no tools!
Man I can't figure the link thing here, just look up Prs winged tuners on Youtube. Good luck!

sergiodeblanc
05-05-2012, 03:35 PM
I love the winged tuners. Great design and very stable. They are my favorites.

I'm beginning to think we are two old men yelling at clouds, and probably the inspiration for "throwback" models.

Darn kids, get off my lawn! :lol:

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T !
05-05-2012, 05:31 PM
Respectfully, don't follow the instructions in that video There is a proper way to do it and that (while close) wasn't it.

When you're done, the wings should be almost equal in posture (see pic). Did you see how that guy's wing was pointing inward? Wrong...

This is how they should look.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd272/hansomatic/Collection/CE24_Metal/IMG_0020.jpg

1) After you slide the each string (starting with the low E) through the cam slot, pull out all the slack, tighten the cam and bend the string (the end you're clipping off) the opposite direction of the turn. Leave about 1/4" of string when you clip it.

2) Tune the strings as you go (E, then A, then D, and so on)

3) By the time you get to the high three strings, the trem is already off the body (or nearly so). Pull the slack before you tighten the cam! Bend the strings the opposite direction, and clip them leaving about 1/4"

All of the wings will be lined up equally (or nearly so) and they shouldn't slip.

sergiodeblanc
05-05-2012, 09:30 PM
Respectfully, don't follow the instructions in that video There is a proper way to do it and that (while close) wasn't it.

When you're done, the wings should be almost equal in posture. Did you see how that guy's wing was pointing inward?

1) After you slide the each string (starting with the low E) through the cam slot, pull out all the slack, tighten the cam and bend the string (the end you're clipping off) the opposite direction of the turn. Leave about 1/4" of string when you clip it.

2) Tune the strings as you go (E, then A, then D, and so on)

3) By the time you get to the high three strings, the trem is already off the body (or nearly so). Pull the slack before you tighten the cam! Bend the strings the opposite direction, and clip them leaving about 1/4"

All of the wings will be lined up equally and the shouldn't slip.
Yeah I had intended to post this one of the master Len doing Frankie's guitar, but screwed it up.
It seems when I am still working on learning the whole inter-web thing, I tried previewing my post and I must have done something wrong. So let me try again.
[youtube:260pgx2j]3xudcBwBAAQ[/youtube:260pgx2j]

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T !
05-05-2012, 09:49 PM
Hope you don't mind, I fixed your link again.

I also hope Len was up to date on his Tetanus shots. :lol:

That was Casper; soul mate of PRS gunslinger Frankie Clarke.

Dirty Bob
05-05-2012, 09:56 PM
just want to add my support for winged tuners! although I get by with the newer ones I'm still incompetent to this day with anything else...it's amazing that winged tuners are now pretty much vintage!

sergiodeblanc
05-05-2012, 10:11 PM
Thanks Hans! My little joke about this guy not quite getting "it" works a little better now. :oops:

Scott Peterson
05-06-2012, 01:02 PM
I still love the winged tuners and have them on my PRS guitar.

But, there is no question that a higher ratio tuner - like the Phase II tuners - makes tuning faster and more precise. To me, more than any learning curve (I can change strings on my PRS guitars in well under 5 minutes total to tuned up and ready to go), the biggest advantages of the Phase II would be: a) weight; and b) a higher tuning ratio.

That said, I love the winged tuners bestest of PRS tuners and will never change them on my PRS guitar. :D

justmund
05-06-2012, 07:18 PM
Had my first experience with these a couple of nights ago. Followed the instructions on the PRS site and once I got the hang of it, string changes were made pretty quickly. Not quite as fast as a Phase II or III change in my book but that's only because of the time it takes (me) to correctly line up the winged tuners before the string goes in. Phase IIIs are definitely my favourite though, they just feel so good!

I did have one small issue, and that was it was tough to get the low E string in the winged tuner slot, I do use a 52 though. I get the feeling this is at the heavier end of the scale and at the limits of what a winged tuner is designed to accommodate. Anyone else have this issue?

In Absentia
05-06-2012, 09:31 PM
I had 'em on my CE24, and I hated 'em. They were too hard to line up properly when changing strings. Never had a problem with slipping, but they just didn't work for me.

vchizzle
05-06-2012, 11:19 PM
Had my first experience with these a couple of nights ago. Followed the instructions on the PRS site and once I got the hang of it, string changes were made pretty quickly. Not quite as fast as a Phase II or III change in my book but that's only because of the time it takes (me) to correctly line up the winged tuners before the string goes in. Phase IIIs are definitely my favourite though, they just feel so good!

I did have one small issue, and that was it was tough to get the low E string in the winged tuner slot, I do use a 52 though. I get the feeling this is at the heavier end of the scale and at the limits of what a winged tuner is designed to accommodate. Anyone else have this issue?
Those were my issues also. I couldn't change a string quick on a dark stage and had problems fitting over a 52. I pulled the tuners shortly after using it live. I needed something to be able to use a 56 or 60 on the low string.

Chester
05-08-2012, 11:02 AM
I never bonded with them, and much prefer the IIs. WTs are heavy by comparison - small detail. Not at all an issue, just different

NorthCoast
05-08-2012, 11:17 AM
I've only had experience with the new Phase III tuners as far as PRS tuners are concerned, but I've never changed a string faster with the possible exception of the Sperzel locking tuners Carvin uses. I prefer the Phase III however, plus the open back with the visible gear looks great!

dank
05-08-2012, 11:49 AM
I have them on my '94 CU 24. I find them very easy to use, and I never have tuning issues.

sergiodeblanc
05-14-2012, 01:57 AM
So I gather the change may have initially been one for ease of use? Rather than a poll of who likes what, or complaining about the tuners, my intention was to try and get an answer as to why the company changed the design.
I'm just a fan of these tuners and I am curious about them, I appreciate any information.

JMintzer
05-14-2012, 08:20 AM
As well as the tuners worked, there was most certainly a learning curve.

Many people never got the hang of them.

It's my guess that once enough people complained, PRS listened. Hence, the Phase II tuners... Much easier to use...

It's also possible that there was a supply side issue with them...


Jamie

Goldtop
05-14-2012, 10:45 PM
I'm not trying to speak for PRS (the company or the man himself), but I think most of us can agree that the main concern about any element of the instruments or amps they make is how they sound. Having said that, I'd be willing to bet that the primary reason for the change in tuners was because they felt a better sound could be had.

I've owned guitars with all of the tuners PRS offers. I've never had a problem with any of them, but I just never cared for the winged version. I much prefer Phase III, Phase II, or even the vintage/Kluson-style, in that order because I feel that the sound transfer, as well as the tone, is better.

Goldtop

Zilmo
05-15-2012, 08:15 AM
The winged tuners are my favorite PRS tuners.

Jester
05-15-2012, 05:40 PM
I like em

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d84/jamesdavidjones/PS/P1020182.jpg

RickO
05-15-2012, 06:31 PM
The winged tuners were one of the many things that distinguished PRS guitars from the rest. If you see a guitar with winged tuners, you know who made it, (of course the headstock & body shapes are a dead give-away too).
I miss them.
Having said that, I do love the new tuners also.

Boogie
05-15-2012, 06:49 PM
Back in the day, there were no alternatives and they were the coolest and best tuners I'd used. Quirky? A little complicated? Yes, but that was the allure. Simply brilliant. I loved them then, and I love them now. One of the quintessential PRS trademarks. 8-)

AP515
05-15-2012, 07:42 PM
Back in the day, there were no alternatives and they were the coolest and best tuners I'd used. Quirky? A little complicated? Yes, but that was the allure. Simply brilliant. I loved them then, and I love them now. One of the quintessential PRS trademarks. 8-)
I first learned about PRS in the phase II days. I loved them and thought they were the brightest idea to come a long for tuners. Then I learned of the winged ones. I again thought they were original and great but not as simple an idea as the phas II's. I have since found a few used PRSi that have them and I find them simple to use but not as easy as the phase II's.

justmund
05-15-2012, 09:33 PM
I'm assuming that Phase IIs & IIIs were introduced because they sound better and/or sustain more than the previous incarnations.

PRS call these tuners 'low mass' which points to the benefit of having lower mass on this part of the guitar.

Anyone weigh in on this? Are the Phase IIs lighter than the Winged? IIIs over IIs? Any one noticed any changes in tone/sustain when swapping on the same axe?

John Mann
05-16-2012, 10:02 AM
Here is a bit o history regarding the winged tuners that I used to make for PRS.
This was saved off of the BAM website.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Stamped Wing Tuners

My name is John Mann and I owned Mil-Com Industries Inc (aka MannMade USA). I made 99% of all the locking tuners in existence. The ones with PRS "stamped" into the wings are actually powdered (sinthered) metal units. But the parts without the PRS stamp are machined by me.

PRS tried this [sinthered] method 3 different times over the years, starting in the early 90's. The switch over was prompted by cost factors, however they never truly proved as successful or reliable as the machined parts. Many parts failed by cracking right at the string break point. This was mostly due to the microscopic voids inherent in PM (powdered metal) parts. PM parts are made by compressing ground metal (as fine as baby powder) under extremely high pressure and then heating it up until the metal flows. The parts are then hardened by a heat treatment process. It's kind of the same as building a sand castle with a bucket as a mold... if you will. Machined parts were made from solid bar stock and then heat treated to the necessary hardness.

I don't have an exact count, but I am sure if I dig around, I can come up with some spares if anyone is interested. Could also consider making a limited batch if there is a need for them."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ADDITIONAL INFO:
Paul Smith and Eric Pritchard designed the winged tuner. The prototypes were symetrical in shape and as I recall either plain steel or nickel plated.

RickO
05-16-2012, 10:16 AM
I think the original prototype tuners were nickel plated. They also have little arrows etched on them.

Boogie
05-16-2012, 12:58 PM
I don't have an exact count, but I am sure if I dig around, I can come up with some spares if anyone is interested. Could also consider making a limited batch if there is a need for them.

Thanks John for the very interesting history lesson. 8-) And thanks VERY much for the gracious offer of spare wings. Do you have solid or sintered stock left? Perhaps we need to take this off forum, but it's a safe bet that there will be several of us interested in getting some spares, just in case.

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T !
05-16-2012, 02:00 PM
Perhaps we need to take this off forum...
Thank you.

Zilmo
05-16-2012, 06:35 PM
Real men used winged tuners.

John Mann
05-17-2012, 11:05 PM
I don't have an exact count, but I am sure if I dig around, I can come up with some spares if anyone is interested. Could also consider making a limited batch if there is a need for them.

Thanks John for the very interesting history lesson. 8-) And thanks VERY much for the gracious offer of spare wings. Do you have solid or sintered stock left? Perhaps we need to take this off forum, but it's a safe bet that there will be several of us interested in getting some spares, just in case.

I would only have the stamped and machined ones, as that is all I made for PRS. They are packed away someplace in my storage space and won't be able to locate them until I complete my move into my new factory space, which will be sometime this summer...

lucidology
05-20-2012, 04:29 AM
Hey Sergio,
You could greatly help the 'winged tuners" cause by posting a video on how to change strings with it :D
I just got a beautiful CE22 and I'm terrorized of changing the strings after all I read about it.

Not mine, but here you go!
[youtube:1itu17vm]2i0UdP55g3A[/youtube:1itu17vm]

He seems to have a little more trouble than I do, but you get the hang of it pretty quick, and no tools!
Man I can't figure the link thing here, just look up Prs winged tuners on Youtube. Good luck!

Oh cool ... never saw that before ...