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Buickrob
05-19-2012, 05:40 PM
Ok, I'll ask. This has been a pretty hot debate elsewhere so it's probably time to go right to the source and ask. Many guys are bummed to find out the "sinker" necks they have on both PS and Core Sigs are not what is generally accepted in the industry as "sinker."

I realize Paul put out a video that clarified PRS sinker vs. river/lake sinker. Just seems that, possibly with the popularity of river loggers on TV:), more than a few guys bought into Sigs because of the cool factor of 200+ year old growth being recovered and used in a killer guitar.

Now, we realize that isn't the case, and the Sigs still rock but have we lost some of the cool?

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
05-19-2012, 06:00 PM
Define cool?

Given that your Siggy is for sale, I'm guessing your answer is "yes." :(

I liked mine when I thought the neck was "Sinker" mahogany (by typical industry definition of the word). I like it just as well now; knowing that it is just regular old (but heavier than usual) mahogany.

Buickrob
05-19-2012, 06:39 PM
Ha, no, my Sig is honestly for sale because I got the 2Tek Thorn bug the Sig will cover that. I'll sell my Schroeder just as I would my Sig but it isn't worth what the Sig is. There is a 50/50 shot that the Sig stays and the Schroeder goes, I don't care either way.

I posted because a few are saying "what would happen if this were on the PRS owned forum" why speculate. Just post it right?

As for me, yeah was honestly bummed, recovered sinker was a neat novelty. Does it change my guitar? Obviously not.

Jester
05-19-2012, 07:38 PM
Here is Paul's video.

http://www.prsguitars.com/index.php/blo ... r_mahogany (http://www.prsguitars.com/index.php/blog/post/what_is_sinker_mahogany)

I am a little confused. The video suggests the "sinker" term as generally used is new, but I heard about sunken wood being used in guitars approximately ten years ago and I assume the concept was not new then. Is the term "sinker" itself that new?

Also, had someone said "sinker" to me, I would immediately have guessed it meant recovered wood. Why would that have not occured to them?

He sounds a little exasperated over the issue. Perhaps to Paul and the guys at PRS concepts like sunken mahogany are minutia, like washers around sweet switches, and they just didn't make the connection.

Goldtop
05-19-2012, 09:27 PM
I'm speaking in general terms here. I am pointing no fingers, taking no swipes, engaging in no nonsense of any kind. I respect myself, my fellow members here, the PRS company, and music & guitars in general far too much to engage in such behaviour.

I've been following this topic at the other forum, and what I take away from it is this: It never ceases to amaze me how some people seem to get upset/irate/troubled over such relatively small things. In my opinion, that's what has happened in this case.

My personal take on this subject is that it's another example of a mountain being made out of a molehill. Apparently, there was enough of an 'issue' made about the term 'sinker' that Paul Reed Smith himself took the time and made the effort to address it. He was concerned and wanted to set the record straight. He stated his position, explained the origin of the term as it pertains to his company, and that's the end of it. I know of no effort whatsoever on the part of anyone to intentionally con or mislead or misrepresent anything to anybody, be they consumers, writers, or whomever.

Again, IMO, this topic says far more about the society we live in and the ways in which it has changed than it does about what a guitar company chooses to call the wood it uses.

Today, 'sinker mahogany', tomorrow, perhaps 'Korina'. That's an invented name too, thought up by some folks at Gibson a long time ago. Why? Because they didn't like the name 'African Limba'. Their wood, their guitar, their choice. They came up with the name 'Korina' and people ended up really liking guitars made out of it. Why? Because of the great sound.

Then, there's the age-old matter of 'tremelo'. Guitars don't have tremelos, unless they have some very unique electronics built into them. The correct term for the guitar hardware commonly known as a whammy bar, or Floyd, or what have you, is vibrato. Yet, guitars with some sort of mechanical device used to raise and lower the pitch of the strings have been referred to as having a 'tremelo' for many, many years. It is technically incorrect, but so what? The name stuck. Lots of people dig guitars with one. Why? Again, because they can sound great! Does the almost universal acceptance of the incorrect term indicate some sort of conscious decision on the part of builders to mislead the public? Not by my standards.

In the end, what difference does it make whether the wood is called 'sinker' by Paul's definition, or someone else's? To anyone who feels misled, duped, etc., I would ask the following: How does the guitar sound? Do you like it? Do you LOVE it? If the answer to any of those questions is yes, then what else matters? If a person is truly upset over a matter such as this, then my advice to them would be that with the next guitar they buy, they should let their displeasure be known by going with another brand.

Again, if anyone has taken offense with what I have said here, please go back and reread the first paragraph of my post. After that, play the guitar(s) you have, enjoy every moment with them, and quit being so concerned with terminology. Listen, touch, experience, enjoy, and make up your own mind based on that input. THAT is what's 'cool'!

Goldtop

LSchefman
05-19-2012, 09:36 PM
Goldtop, you put it very succinctly and I agree with everything you said.

JMintzer
05-20-2012, 06:50 AM
The term "sinker" is relatively new. But the use of reclaimed sunken wood is not.

I have a Tacoma EK-36C. The top is made from reclaimed "sunken" Cedar.

Here is Tacoma's description of the wood, from some 10-15 year ago:


The Cedar top on this guitar came from a tree in Washington's Clearwater-Salmon River area. This tree was salvaged from a swampy flat about ten miles inland from the coast. It had been totally submerged for over 600 years. We know this because it had a 600-year-old tree growing on top of it. The tree was over 2000 years old when it fell. It had a slight left-handed twist in the trunk, which meant it was non-phototropic, grew more slowly, and packed its growth tightly.

PRSH has given his explanation of what the wood is. You can either accept that, or not. Your choice...

That's mt $0.02...


Jamie

gear_freak
05-20-2012, 07:08 AM
I love my Siggy Ltd. I sounds great! The sinker neck did not dictate my purchase decision. It was getting the 408s!!!

Twinfan
05-20-2012, 04:41 PM
PRSH has given his explanation of what the wood is. You can either accept that, or not. Your choice...


It would have been better if the explanation had come up front with the PS 100 Sig run, not after the 400 Ltds. I factored the reclaimed wood definition (and therefore the rarity/extra price) into my cost/benefit decision when buying my two PS Sigs. Much as I love both the guitars, I do feel cheated to a certain degree...

PRSHB2
05-20-2012, 05:48 PM
I had no idea what "sinker" mahogany even was until I started shopping for a Sig Ltd. Once I read up on it, the potential history of the wood was very interesting to me. I can't say if true sinker wood would effect the sound or not. Never played any. A very brief search from my phone found a post about drying sinker wood dated in 2000. When the term first came about is beyond me. I did buy a Sig Ltd and traded it off, but parting with it had nothing to do with the type of wood.

Goldtop
05-20-2012, 06:28 PM
Goldtop, you put it very succinctly and I agree with everything you said.

Thank you very much LSchefman. I appreciate that.

Goldtop

Buickrob
05-20-2012, 07:21 PM
PRSH has given his explanation of what the wood is. You can either accept that, or not. Your choice...


It would have been better if the explanation had come up front with the PS 100 Sig run, not after the 400 Ltds. I factored the reclaimed wood definition (and therefore the rarity/extra price) into my cost/benefit decision when buying my two PS Sigs. Much as I love both the guitars, I do feel cheated to a certain degree...

And that's the best way to put the "other" side of this without starting a big fight here. The term "sinker" did factor in on some purchases.

Twinfan
05-21-2012, 02:32 AM
Thanks Buickrob. It was certainly a factor for me.

Zilmo
05-21-2012, 10:49 AM
Like I said, I have no dog in this fight. I first heard about sinker wood about 12-15 years ago, and I have to admit, when I first heard about the PRS sinker mahogany, I assumed it was old water-logged lumber.

ACE
05-21-2012, 11:10 AM
In my opinion, use of the word "sinker" to describe a mahogany neck was misleading. The guitar building industry commonly uses this term for a particular purpose—to describe wood that has been recovered from underwater. Moreover, the industry has touted “sinker” as having certain qualities that make it better than regular wood. PRS should have known that buyers and dealers would draw this conclusion. Whether the wood they used is in fact better than true “sinker” wood or the guitars are the best sounding guitars in the history of the word is irrelevant to the fact the PRS was irresponsible for using the word “sinker.”

LSchefman
05-21-2012, 12:04 PM
I'd be interested in knowing which of the people who are touting their knowledge of what is, or is not, standard "industry" practice are actually qualified by training or experience to determine exactly what "by typical industry definition of the word" is.

To my mind, these accusations are unfounded and a bit obnoxious.

PRS clearly had no motivation whatsoever to mislead a soul. If they'd called it "private stock mahogany" they know darn well that people would still have been all over it, and no one would be complaining.

Just my two cents. Mods, if this post is against the rules, please delete it and let me know I've overstepped my bounds.

ACE
05-21-2012, 02:34 PM
I'd be interested in knowing which of the people who are touting their knowledge of what is, or is not, standard "industry" practice are actually qualified by training or experience to determine exactly what "by typical industry definition of the word" is.

To my mind, these accusations are unfounded and a bit obnoxious.

PRS clearly had no motivation whatsoever to mislead a soul. If they'd called it "private stock mahogany" they know darn well that people would still have been all over it, and no one would be complaining.

Just my two cents. Mods, if this post is against the rules, please delete it and let me know I've overstepped my bounds.

But they did not call it Private Stock Mahogany which has no other meaning outside the PRS universe. Instead they called it "Sinker" which has a meaning in the wood andguitar industry in include wood that has been recovered from lakes and rivers. It is not unreasonable to forsee that people would conclude that the use of the word "sinker" in combination of mahogany means that wood was reclaimed from the water.

LSchefman
05-21-2012, 02:51 PM
But they did not call it Private Stock Mahogany which has no other meaning outside the PRS universe. Instead they called it "Sinker" which has a meaning in the wood andguitar industry in include wood that has been recovered from lakes and rivers. It is not unreasonable to forsee that people would conclude that the use of the word "sinker" in combination of mahogany means that wood was reclaimed from the water.

Ace, what I'd like to understand is why no one will state their qualifications and experience in the "wood and guitar industry" to have the background to render an opinion as to what a particular term's accepted industry meaning is.

If you're an experienced industry vet with training in forestry or whatever expert subject one needs to pontificate about this stuff, great. Maybe your opinion should be listened to.

If not, you're just another guy wearing a tin foil hat talking about how aliens built the Pyramids.

Buickrob
05-21-2012, 02:58 PM
Here we go again. Get out of lawyer mode and google sinker mahogany. You will see why people thought it was something else.

LSchefman
05-21-2012, 03:28 PM
Here we go again. Get out of lawyer mode and google sinker mahogany. You will see why people thought it was something else.

If your assumption was that I'd see this thread and not express my opinion, you were wrong.

Let me know when the Internet becomes the authoritative source on industry practices or truth.

Zilmo
05-21-2012, 03:29 PM
Well, I am certainly no wood expert by any means. I was just going by what I learned the term to mean.

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
05-21-2012, 03:31 PM
This issue is clearly defined: There is disparity between what Paul has called "Sinker" Mahogany and what others may call sinker Mahogany.

If you own one of these guitars, you don't need any more evidence to choose a productive path forward:
Path #1: Contact your dealer and/or PRS Customer Service
Path #2: Accept Paul's explanation (See video in this thread) and continue to enjoy the guitar

Either way, let the Truth stand.

Goldtop
05-21-2012, 06:32 PM
This issue is clearly defined: There is disparity between what Paul has called "Sinker" Mahogany and what others may call sinker Mahogany.

If you own one of these guitars, you don't need any more evidence to choose a productive path forward:
Path #1: Contact your dealer and/or PRS Customer Service
Path #2: Accept Paul's explanation (See video in this thread) and continue to enjoy the guitar

Either way, let the Truth stand.

Thank you Hans. Hopefully, for those who feel wronged in some way, one of those two choices will suffice.

Goldtop

Buickrob
05-21-2012, 07:07 PM
Here we go again. Get out of lawyer mode and google sinker mahogany. You will see why people thought it was something else.

If your assumption was that I'd see this thread and not express my opinion, you were wrong.

Let me know when the Internet becomes the authoritative source on industry practices or truth.

I am not talking about "authoritative," I am talking about general opinion. This does not have to be a court decision by Judge Schefman.


Anyway, I think you at least see how people would think they were getting recovered wood due to a general understanding of what is commonly referred to as Sinker.

watelessness
05-21-2012, 07:20 PM
Me for about 18 months: "Jack, 408's available in a production model yet?"
Jack for about 18 months: "nope. sorry."

Experience 2011
Me: "Paul, when will 408's be available in a production model?"
PRSh: <glare>

January, 2012:
Me: "Jack, production model 408's are out. I'll take a green one with a wang bar"
Jack: "Done"

a couple weeks later in January, 2012:
Me: "Sounds great! Feels great"
Jack: "it has blah and blah and sinker blah.."
Me: "Don't care, sounds great, feels great. I want one with a quilt top, stoptail, purple hazel"

Experience, 2012:
Me: "Paul, when can I get a hotter neck pickup in 408 form factor?"
PRSh: <glare> "You guys are never satisfied, you're always pushing the envelope of technology and creativity"
Me: "I know. We're just like you. That's why we buy PRS" :lol:

LSchefman
05-21-2012, 08:52 PM
I am not talking about "authoritative," I am talking about general opinion. This does not have to be a court decision by Judge Schefman.

Not me. I could never handle being a judge. A judge is supposed to be impartial. I'm incapable of being impartial.


Anyway, I think you at least see how people would think they were getting recovered wood due to a general understanding of what is commonly referred to as Sinker.

Certainly, I can see how people might think that.

Let me clarify: that isn't what I found troubling.

Let me make this distinction:

If people had simply said, "We thought we were getting X. We didn't get X. Why?" Or "Can you correct the situation?" that would be entirely reasonable.

When people say, "We thought we were getting X. We didn't get X. That means we were intentionally misled, because the industry standard is that X can mean only this," I think they're getting way ahead of themselves, and an unfair accusation is being made.

As it happens, I'm a big fan of Paul Reed Smith. I think many of us share that admiration and feel an affinity for the company. I'm the kind of guy who will stand up and speak out against what isn't right whenever I can, and that goes double for someone whose work I admire.

So...what can I tell you. I'm a fighter, not a referee.

PRSHB2
05-21-2012, 09:26 PM
I'm quite confident that all of us here are HUGE fans of PRS. I know I am. Just because we have differing opinions doesn't mean we no longer feel the love. If all of us thought exactly the same way there might be only one model of PRS. With that in mind, I'm very glad we don't all agree, all the time.

Buickrob
05-21-2012, 09:30 PM
When people say, "We thought we were getting X. We didn't get X. That means we were intentionally misled, because the industry standard is that X can mean only this," I think they're getting way ahead of themselves, and an unfair accusation is being made.


I hope you realIze THIS particular thread has not gone to that ugly place. I think we have all been careful and respectful enough to avoid that. I have re-read the thread and do not find any accusations of buyers being intentionally misled. Why would you then go there in defense when it has not actually happened? Customers are saying they are disappointed but no one has outright called shenanagins here my friend.

JMintzer
05-21-2012, 09:34 PM
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070921175733/uncyclopedia/images/8/86/BadNews-BangHead.gif

Buickrob
05-21-2012, 09:45 PM
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070921175733/uncyclopedia/images/8/86/BadNews-BangHead.gif


So then kill the thread. As long as it is up though I'm not going to have one guy play "Protector of the Universe" and defend against accusations that have not been made here.

I agree though that this is not worh it at this point and I took Hans' suggestion and emailed customer support. Dead horses I guess :roll:

LSchefman
05-21-2012, 10:12 PM
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070921175733/uncyclopedia/images/8/86/BadNews-BangHead.gif

Geez, Jamie, I hope you don't hurt your head while I'm singlehandedly protecting the entire Star League and the rest of the universe out here on the frontier...

LSchefman
05-21-2012, 10:40 PM
I have re-read the thread and do not find any accusations of buyers being intentionally misled. Why would you then go there in defense when it has not actually happened? Customers are saying they are disappointed but no one has outright called shenanagins here my friend.

I guess I have to be nice when someone calls me a friend...for the last time, and then I'm done too: I've copied and pasted these quotes from this very thread:

"I do feel cheated to a certain degree..." Another says, "In my opinion, use of the word "sinker" to describe a mahogany neck was misleading."

Cheated? Misleading? If that isn't outright calling shenanigans, I don't know what could be.

Now we could disagree forever here and poor Mintzer will have himself one gigantic figurative headache from smashing his figurative head into his figurative desk. I see from your post that you're going to contact PRS to see if you can squeeze your pound of flesh out of them. So at least this thread served its purpose for you.

Meantime I have to return to the frontier to defend the universe...

Twinfan
05-22-2012, 03:25 AM
"I do feel cheated to a certain degree..." Another says, "In my opinion, use of the word "sinker" to describe a mahogany neck was misleading."

Cheated? Misleading? If that isn't outright calling shenanigans, I don't know what could be.

Just because I "feel cheated to a certain degree" it does not necessarily mean I think the aim to was to intentionally decieve.

I'm just stating what I think right now, after the PRS meaning of "sinker" has come to light.

Buickrob
05-22-2012, 05:42 AM
Thanks, bye.

cwhenke
05-22-2012, 05:57 AM
This issue is clearly defined: There is disparity between what Paul has called "Sinker" Mahogany and what others may call sinker Mahogany.

If you own one of these guitars, you don't need any more evidence to choose a productive path forward:
Path #1: Contact your dealer and/or PRS Customer Service
Path #2: Accept Paul's explanation (See video in this thread) and continue to enjoy the guitar

Either way, let the Truth stand.

OK, so I'll start by saying that I have read this thread in three different locations. I don't have one of the guitars in question, so this is what I think some of you are saying:

PRS as a company, with its experts in wood (Paul himself has acknowledged using the same wood buyers for many, many years because they are so good at finding the best woods), should have known better than to use an industry definition in an incorrect way. I think a lot of this has been targeted directly at Paul himself because of the video, but I think it really comes down to the idea that someone within PRS should have caught it before it was advertised that way.

JMintzer
05-22-2012, 06:26 AM
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070921175733/uncyclopedia/images/8/86/BadNews-BangHead.gif


So then kill the thread. As long as it is up though I'm not going to have one guy play "Protector of the Universe" and defend against accusations that have not been made here.

I agree though that this is not worh it at this point and I took Hans' suggestion and emailed customer support. Dead horses I guess :roll:

What? And satisfy those who think we're a bunch of tight asses over here? No thanks...

My comment was not directed at any one individual. Just the circular argument that has been made, responded to, made again, responded to etc, etc, etc...

Even my shampoo bottle does not say "rinse and repeat until the end of time"...

At this point, pretty much everyone has had their say. Now y'all are just arguing for the sake of arguing...


Jamie

Buickrob
05-22-2012, 06:34 AM
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070921175733/uncyclopedia/images/8/86/BadNews-BangHead.gif


So then kill the thread. As long as it is up though I'm not going to have one guy play "Protector of the Universe" and defend against accusations that have not been made here.

I agree though that this is not worh it at this point and I took Hans' suggestion and emailed customer support. Dead horses I guess :roll:

What? And satisfy those who think we're a bunch of tight asses over here? No thanks...

My comment was not directed at any one individual. Just the circular argument that has been made, responded to, made again, responded to etc, etc, etc...

Even my shampoo bottle does not say "rinse and repeat until the end of time"...

At this point, pretty much everyone has had their say. Now y'all are just arguing for the sake of arguing...


Jamie

Well played.

docbennett
05-22-2012, 07:55 AM
Fact: I own a PS Siggy.

Fact: The COA states that the neck is "Sinker Mahagony"

Fact: The neck is NOT "sinker Mahagony" based on a) those who are wood experts and b)based on the general usage of the term. This "knowledge" is not my opinion. It is fact.

Fact: It matters not to me. I would have bought the guitar whether or not it was boasting a "sinker Mahagony" neck.

Fact: There are some out there, who might NOT have bought the guitar if they had known about the UNINTENTIONAL misrepresentation. Those people have been provided with recommendations with regard to how to proceed. Those recommendations sound reasonable. I am sure the company will stand behind any complaints and do the right thing...whatever that may be.

Fact: there are some out there who would seek to turn a debate into a lynching. We ARE allowed to discuss this, and we ARE allowed to express opinions....those who would seek to judge those opinions should recognize that they ARE being judgemental. I have read some of the comments. I would think that accusing someone who is NOT a wood expert of being "Just another guy in a tinfoil hat discussing space aliens" to be somewhat inflamatory.

I believe that it is the judgemental comments and the "so-called expertise" of non-experts that have served to create more controversy than necessary.

And yes...my '87 "Red Krinkle" PRS came from the factory with a sweet switch that had a washer!! :o

Just my 2 cents on an already "debated-to-death" topic.

docbennett
05-22-2012, 08:15 AM
To my mind, these accusations are unfounded and a bit obnoxious.

PRS clearly had no motivation whatsoever to mislead a soul.

Les....and you know this, how?? When was the last time you had dinner with Paul and discussed his marketing strategy and the intentions behind his representations?

Again...I have no problem with PRSh or PRS the company. but...I can relate to Twinfan who bought 2 of the PS Siggys and factored the rarity of the wood into his purchase decision.

Again...my only concern is the judgemental comments critical of those who raise the debate....and my concern for those who bought the guitar(s) with the incorrect assumption regarding the etiology of the wood.

Les...are you positioning yourself to be the next legal council for PRS?? :lol:

Twinfan
05-22-2012, 09:07 AM
I have a question on this subject. Why has the reference to "sinker" mahogany been removed from the Private Stock Signature run specs on the PRS website? It used to be there and is clearly stated on the PS certificates:

http://www.prsguitars.com/2011_signatureltd/specs.php

http://worldguitars.co.uk/images/uploads/products-fullscreen/signumber3001-full.jpg

It's still there for the Limiteds:

http://www.prsguitars.com/signaturelimited/specs.php

LSchefman
05-22-2012, 09:42 AM
To my mind, these accusations are unfounded and a bit obnoxious.

PRS clearly had no motivation whatsoever to mislead a soul.

Les....and you know this, how?? When was the last time you had dinner with Paul and discussed his marketing strategy and the intentions behind his representations?

When was the last time those accusing PRS of fleecing them talked directly to him about this (other than on a public forum)?

I have no need to have dinner with Paul to realize this, and frankly, Paul would never invite me to dinner anyway. He doesn't know me from Adam. PRS had no motivation to mislead anyone because they don't have to in order to sell fancy guitars; people get excited about what they label "private stock" etc.

The people on this thread might have chosen a less loaded word; how about "I think PRS made a mistake." And they might have shown PRS a little respect and raised the issue privately with customer service in the first place instead of trying to embarrass and pressure PRS publicly.


Les...are you positioning yourself to be the next legal council for PRS?? :lol:

Bennett, you know otherwise.

I can't turn this into a lynching; as you can see I'm the only one in the lynch mob!

I think the shoe is on the other foot. This thread wasn't started to have a discussion about wood types. Words like "misled" and "cheated" get thrown around for a purpose: to publicly pressure and get something out of PRS.

"Oh, we didn't mean intentionally cheated. We just mean...cheated." How nice of you.

And the joke, to me, is that pretty much to a person, these folks say, "Yes the guitar is fantastic." Gee, they got totally screwed by buying a fantastic guitar! How terrible!

You say that you're allowed to discuss this and express opinions; well, so am I. You accuse me of being judgmental -- yes, of course I am! All day, every day!

So Bennett, do you have your tin foil conspiracy hat on, and what are you going to demand from PRS for having been duped into buying your excellent guitar?

Get out the torches and pitchforks, we're going to storm the castle!!! Wooo!

LSchefman
05-22-2012, 09:46 AM
I have a question on this subject. Why has the reference to "sinker" mahogany been removed from the Private Stock Signature run specs on the PRS website?

Maybe they just want to put the issue to bed.

docbennett
05-22-2012, 10:03 AM
Les...once again, you have missed the point.

We can criticize the company for failing to make proper disclosures, and still "love the product".

Try these on for size:'

1) You marry a girl, but have certain religous principles with regard to premarital sex. You find out at a later date that she was NOT a virgin when you married her. You still love her..you still enjoy having sex with her. But, you feel that you were misled. You don't leave her. You still want her. But....you still feel you were misled.

2) (maybe this one is closer to home, Les) You still love your Dali Lithograph. but, when you try to sell it, you are told "NO...it's a fake...one of those signed by an imposter". You still love the image...you can't tell the fake from the original litho...but, you feel duped and misled.

Maybe not perfect examples. But, what we have here is a concept of misrepresentation. Not necessarily intentional. but, you seem to be overly zealous about defending the company's position.

I have the COA. they definitely, clearly, obviously misrepresented the wood. Is it a big deal? Not to me. but it is to others. What you were toldupon purchase, is NOT what you received. And...I can personally vouch for the hype this "sinker wood" was being touted as, by several dealers, when it was first released.

Les..why do you have a problem acknowledging this? Again...we can love the product..but criticize how it was presented to the buying public. I have no intention of requesting a refund or exchnage. However, I would think that owners like "Twinfan" would have a case, if they were determined to return it for the price they paid.

JMintzer
05-22-2012, 10:10 AM
And round and round it goes, where it stops, nobody knows...

http://www.videovortex.evan-roth.com/gifs//BarneyShoot.gif

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
05-22-2012, 10:18 AM
Fact: there are some out there who would seek to turn a debate into a lynching.
Unfortunately, you're right. It is human nature to run toward smoke and look for the fire. But I wonder, have you noticed anyone in the crowd holding an empty gas can and an expended match?

No one is hiding from this topic, Gentlemen. You are good men with big hearts. When you throw logs on this fire, you become a puppet (for the aforementioned arsonist) and your emotional reactions diminish the power of your important opinion.

The Truth can stand on its own.

LSchefman
05-22-2012, 10:36 AM
Les...once again, you have missed the point.

The fact that I have a different point of view from yours doesn't mean I don't understand what you're saying. Both on the surface, and what's really behind your thinking.

I notice that you use the term, "not necessarily intentional." Which means, of course, "possibly intentional." All of your examples speak to intentional misrepresentation: the girl knows for sure she's no virgin; the fake art work; the use of the term, "duped and misled." Please don't pretend otherwise. Not very hard to read between the lines, you're very transparent.

As I have maintained all along, there's a very deliberate meaning to this thread, and it ain't a kindly, gentlemanly claim that PRS made an unintentional mistake, and oh my gosh, can something be done?

Look, I believe Paul in the video. You and others don't. It's really that simple.

So I say do not lynch the man.

LSchefman
05-22-2012, 10:40 AM
And round and round it goes, where it stops, nobody knows...

http://www.videovortex.evan-roth.com/gifs//BarneyShoot.gif

Didn't you post something like this before? Aren't ya ever gonna stop doing this ad infinitum?

Twinfan
05-22-2012, 10:45 AM
This thread wasn't started to have a discussion about wood types. Words like "misled" and "cheated" get thrown around for a purpose: to publicly pressure and get something out of PRS.

"Oh, we didn't mean intentionally cheated. We just mean...cheated." How nice of you.

I didn't start this thread, nor am I trying to "get something out of PRS". I'm just giving my personal viewpoint as part of the discussion.

JMintzer
05-22-2012, 10:57 AM
And round and round it goes, where it stops, nobody knows...

http://www.videovortex.evan-roth.com/gifs//BarneyShoot.gif

Didn't you post something like this before? Aren't ya ever gonna stop doing this ad infinitum?

No, I posted a gif of someone banging its head on the computer.

That didn't make an impression, so I decided to end the pain...


Jamie

LSchefman
05-22-2012, 11:08 AM
And round and round it goes, where it stops, nobody knows...

http://www.videovortex.evan-roth.com/gifs//BarneyShoot.gif

Didn't you post something like this before? Aren't ya ever gonna stop doing this ad infinitum?

No, I posted a gif of someone banging its head on the computer.

That didn't make an impression, so I decided to end the pain...


Jamie

Haha, I promise to stop now. Really, This time I will. ;)

docbennett
05-22-2012, 12:04 PM
Les...once again, you have missed the point.

I notice that you use the term, "not necessarily intentional." Which means, of course, "possibly intentional."

Hoo boy. It also means possibly unintentional. You sure do use words to suit your purpose and to fit your arguement...even when they don't apply.

I realize that you are no longer practicing law. However, this thread reminds me how much I enjoy being a forensic expert and destroying the opposing attorney while being cross examined.

I guess that must be my second favorite hobby behind playing the guitar. :lol:

JMintzer
05-22-2012, 12:49 PM
Les...once again, you have missed the point.

I notice that you use the term, "not necessarily intentional." Which means, of course, "possibly intentional."

Hoo boy. It also means possibly unintentional. You sure do use words to suit your purpose and to fit your arguement...even when they don't apply.

I realize that you are no longer practicing law. However, this thread reminds me how much I enjoy being a forensic expert and destroying the opposing attorney while being cross examined.

I guess that must be my second favorite hobby behind playing the guitar. :lol:

Are we done "destroying" yet?


Jamie

docbennett
05-22-2012, 12:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

The Argument Sketch



A man walks into an office.

Man: (Michael Palin) Ah. I'd like to have an argument, please.

Receptionist: Certainly sir. Have you been here before?

Man: No, this is my first time.

Receptionist: I see. Well, do you want to have the full argument, or were you thinking of taking a course?

Man: Well, what would be the cost?

Receptionist: Well, It's one pound for a five minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten.

Man: Well, I think it's probably best if I start with the one and then see how it goes from there, okay?

Receptionist: Fine. I'll see who's free at the moment.

(Pause)

Receptionist: Mr. DeBakey's free, but he's a little bit conciliatory. Ahh yes, Try Mr. Barnard; room 12.

Man: Thank you. (Walks down the hall. Opens door.)

Angry man: WHADDAYOU WANT?

Man: Well, Well, I was told outside that...

Angry man: DON'T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED HEAP OF PARROT DROPPINGS!

Man: What?

A: SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE! YOU VACUOUS TOFFEE-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!!

M: Yes, but I came here for an argument!!

A: OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse!

M: Oh! Oh I see!

A: Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door.

M: Oh...Sorry...

A: Not at all!

A: (under his breath) stupid git.

(The man goes into room 12A. Another man is sitting behind a desk.)

Man: Is this the right room for an argument?

Other Man:(John Cleese) I've told you once.

Man: No you haven't!

Other Man: Yes I have.

M: When?

O: Just now.

M: No you didn't!

O: Yes I did!

M: You didn't!

O: I did!

M: You didn't!

O: I'm telling you, I did!

M: You did not!

O: Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?

M: Ah! (taking out his wallet and paying) Just the five minutes.

O: Just the five minutes. Thank you.

O: Anyway, I did.

M: You most certainly did not!

O: Now let's get one thing quite clear: I most definitely told you!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: No you DIDN'T!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: No you DIDN'T!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: No you DIDN'T!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh look, this isn't an argument!

(pause)

O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

(pause)

M: It's just contradiction!

O: No it isn't!

M: It IS!

O: It is NOT!

M: You just contradicted me!

O: No I didn't!

M: You DID!

O: No no no!

M: You did just then!

O: Nonsense!

M: (exasperated) Oh, this is futile!!

(pause)

O: No it isn't!

M: Yes it is!

(pause)

M: I came here for a good argument!

O: AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument!

M: An argument isn't just contradiction.

O: Well! it CAN be!

M: No it can't!

M: An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.

O: No it isn't!

M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.

O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!

M: Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'.

O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

O: Yes it is!

M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.

O: It is NOT!

M: It is!

O: Not at all!

M: It is!

(The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops.)

O: Thank you, that's it.

M: (stunned) What?

O: That's it. Good morning.

M: But I was just getting interested!

O: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up.

M: That was never five minutes just now!!

O: I'm afraid it was.

M: (leading on) No it wasn't.....

O: I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more.

M: WHAT??

O: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.

M: But that was never five minutes just now!
Oh Come on!
Oh this is...
This is ridiculous!


O: I told you... I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you PAY!

M: Oh all right. (takes out his wallet and pays again.) There you are.

O: Thank you.

M: (clears throat) Well...

O: Well WHAT?

M: That was never five minutes just now.

O: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!

M: Well I just paid!

O: No you didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I don't want to argue about it!

O: Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay!

M: Ah hah! Well if I didn't pay, why are you arguing??? Ah HAAAAAAHHH! Gotcha!

O: No you haven't!

M: Yes I have! If you're arguing, I must have paid.

O: Not necessarily. I *could* be arguing in my spare time.

M: I've had enough of this!

O: No you haven't.

M: Oh shut up!

(Man leaves the office)

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
05-22-2012, 01:31 PM
...this thread reminds me how much I enjoy being a forensic expert and destroying the opposing attorney while being cross examined.


Are we done "destroying" yet?

http://assets.rollingstone.com/assets/images/music/lists/500-greatest-albums-of-all-time/306x306/destroyer-kiss.JPG

Dirty Bob
05-22-2012, 01:32 PM
Well I think that just about does it guys...I haven't really participated in any of these threads (well other than to pledge my love of pie)...I think this has clearly moved from intelligent conversation to one of besting the other person and hurting others feelings...especially how this has spread to multiple boards. I've waisted enough of my life reading about this. Where I come from when something like this happens among friends we tell each other to #$%# off one last time and then shake hands and grab a beer...there are good people on both sides here...probably should think about a ceasefire IMHO.

ACE
05-22-2012, 01:35 PM
OK, so I'll start by saying that I have read this thread in three different locations. I don't have one of the guitars in question, so this is what I think some of you are saying:

PRS as a company, with its experts in wood (Paul himself has acknowledged using the same wood buyers for many, many years because they are so good at finding the best woods), should have known better than to use an industry definition in an incorrect way. I think a lot of this has been targeted directly at Paul himself because of the video, but I think it really comes down to the idea that someone within PRS should have caught it before it was advertised that way.

Absolutely correct. This is called Negligence.

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
05-22-2012, 01:43 PM
Well I think that just about does it guys...I haven't really participated in any of these threads (well other than to pledge my love of pie)...I think this has clearly moved from intelligent conversation to one of besting the other person and hurting others feelings...especially how this has spread to multiple boards. I've wasted enough of my life reading about this. Where I come from when something like this happens among friends we tell each other to #$%# off one last time and then shake hands and grab a beer...there are good people on both sides here...probably should think about a ceasefire IMHO.
Foul ball, Bob!

Man rule #2641 clearly states... you cannot invoke "pie" without declaring a flavor.

Dirty Bob
05-22-2012, 01:47 PM
OK, so I'll start by saying that I have read this thread in three different locations. I don't have one of the guitars in question, so this is what I think some of you are saying:

PRS as a company, with its experts in wood (Paul himself has acknowledged using the same wood buyers for many, many years because they are so good at finding the best woods), should have known better than to use an industry definition in an incorrect way. I think a lot of this has been targeted directly at Paul himself because of the video, but I think it really comes down to the idea that someone within PRS should have caught it before it was advertised that way.

Absolutely correct. This is called Negligence.


Maybe...or...it could have been an oversight...a mistake...an unfortunate set of circumstances.

I just wish the rhetoric could be toned down...obviously everybody should be allowed their opinion. I just think people need to calm down a bit.

My personal experience with PRS as a company is that when mistakes are made they fix them and typically go above and beyond...they care about their clients...the end consumer/user tremendously.

Dirty Bob
05-22-2012, 01:48 PM
Well I think that just about does it guys...I haven't really participated in any of these threads (well other than to pledge my love of pie)...I think this has clearly moved from intelligent conversation to one of besting the other person and hurting others feelings...especially how this has spread to multiple boards. I've wasted enough of my life reading about this. Where I come from when something like this happens among friends we tell each other to #$%# off one last time and then shake hands and grab a beer...there are good people on both sides here...probably should think about a ceasefire IMHO.
Foul ball, Bob!

Man rule #2641 clearly states... you cannot invoke "pie" without declaring a flavor.


APPLE PIE...Cinnamon and Brown sugar...vanilla ice cream...lip smackin gooey good.

God I love pie!!!

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
05-22-2012, 01:53 PM
APPLE PIE...Cinnamon and Brown sugar...vanilla ice cream...lip smackin gooey good.
What???? WRONG!

Everyone knows it's pecan pie.

Regular Pecan, Bourbon Pecan, Chocolate Pecan... whatever. As long as you submit to me and confess to everyone that I am right.

Don't make me call in my expert witness, DocBennett. He will destroy you. :twisted:

:mrgreen:

JMintzer
05-22-2012, 01:54 PM
Well I think that just about does it guys...I haven't really participated in any of these threads (well other than to pledge my love of pie)...I think this has clearly moved from intelligent conversation to one of besting the other person and hurting others feelings...especially how this has spread to multiple boards. I've wasted enough of my life reading about this. Where I come from when something like this happens among friends we tell each other to #$%# off one last time and then shake hands and grab a beer...there are good people on both sides here...probably should think about a ceasefire IMHO.
Foul ball, Bob!

Man rule #2641 clearly states... you cannot invoke "pie" without declaring a flavor.


APPLE PIE...Cinnamon and Brown sugar...vanilla ice cream...lip smackin gooey good.

God I love pie!!!

http://www.splotchy.com/images/blog/applepiemode.jpg

JMintzer
05-22-2012, 01:55 PM
And, according to innertubz legend, once the "rule of pie" has been declared, the argument is over...


Jamie

Dirty Bob
05-22-2012, 01:56 PM
APPLE PIE...Cinnamon and Brown sugar...vanilla ice cream...lip smackin gooey good.
What???? WRONG!

Everyone knows it's pecan pie.

Regular Pecan, Bourbon Pecan, Chocolate Pecan... whatever. As long as you submit to me and confess to everyone that I am right.

Don't make me call in my expert witness, DocBennett. He will destroy you. :twisted:

:mrgreen:

Dude...No...It's apple pie...just the way I described it...

Maybe we can find neutral ground with strawberry rhubarb?

Dirty Bob
05-22-2012, 01:59 PM
Besides I can't submit to you...I'm already taken...sorry...


my wife has got the key.

Pretty sure Heather has you locked up anyway...

wsaraceni
05-22-2012, 02:02 PM
can someone fill me in? what is "sinker" mahoganny as used on these PRS??

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
05-22-2012, 02:04 PM
Besides I can't submit to you...I'm already taken...sorry...


my wife has got the key.

Pretty sure Heather has you locked up anyway...
Why you Son of a... um... err...

[Sigh]

Ok. You got me. I guess Bob is a Destroyer too.

But I did play her guitar this weekend. M'wahahahahahahahahahaha!

Dirty Bob
05-22-2012, 02:08 PM
Holy sheesh...I'm going blind and deaf...

what's that? Couldn't hear ya?

lucky guy...did ya sneak it or did she let ya?

docbennett
05-22-2012, 02:19 PM
APPLE PIE...Cinnamon and Brown sugar...vanilla ice cream...lip smackin gooey good.
What???? WRONG!

Everyone knows it's pecan pie.

Regular Pecan, Bourbon Pecan, Chocolate Pecan... whatever. As long as you submit to me and confess to everyone that I am right.

Don't make me call in my expert witness, DocBennett. He will destroy you. :twisted:

:mrgreen:

I confess! I confess!! :o

It's Pecan Pie with a bit of melted chocolate drizzled over the top. :D

And besides....the name is Ned! :lol:

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
05-22-2012, 02:32 PM
lucky guy...did ya sneak it or did she let ya?
Ummm... I'm sure I don't know what you mean, Bob. :?


I confess! I confess!! :o

It's Pecan Pie with a bit of melted chocolate drizzled over the top.[/b] :D

And besides....the name is Ned The Destroyer! :lol:
Fixed.

Twinfan
05-22-2012, 02:45 PM
My personal experience with PRS as a company is that when mistakes are made they fix them and typically go above and beyond...they care about their clients...the end consumer/user tremendously.

But what is the "fix" in this case? There is no obvious one unlike faulty wiring or incorrect pickups fitted.

PRSHB2
05-22-2012, 02:46 PM
can someone fill me in? what is "sinker" mahoganny as used on these PRS??
From the first page: http://www.prsguitars.com/index.php/blo ... r_mahogany (http://www.prsguitars.com/index.php/blog/post/what_is_sinker_mahogany)

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
05-22-2012, 03:07 PM
But what is the "fix" in this case?

From page 2 of this thread:

If you own one of these guitars, you don't need any more evidence to choose a productive path forward:
Path #1: Contact your dealer and/or PRS Customer Service
Path #2: Accept Paul's explanation (See video in this thread) and continue to enjoy the guitar

Twinfan
05-22-2012, 03:09 PM
Fair point Hans.

I'm out.

Zilmo
05-22-2012, 06:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

The Argument Sketch



A man walks into an office.

Man: (Michael Palin) Ah. I'd like to have an argument, please.

Receptionist: Certainly sir. Have you been here before?

Man: No, this is my first time.

Receptionist: I see. Well, do you want to have the full argument, or were you thinking of taking a course?

Man: Well, what would be the cost?

Receptionist: Well, It's one pound for a five minute argument, but only eight pounds for a course of ten.

Man: Well, I think it's probably best if I start with the one and then see how it goes from there, okay?

Receptionist: Fine. I'll see who's free at the moment.

(Pause)

Receptionist: Mr. DeBakey's free, but he's a little bit conciliatory. Ahh yes, Try Mr. Barnard; room 12.

Man: Thank you. (Walks down the hall. Opens door.)

Angry man: WHADDAYOU WANT?

Man: Well, Well, I was told outside that...

Angry man: DON'T GIVE ME THAT, YOU SNOTTY-FACED HEAP OF PARROT DROPPINGS!

Man: What?

A: SHUT YOUR FESTERING GOB, YOU TIT! YOUR TYPE MAKES ME PUKE! YOU VACUOUS TOFFEE-NOSED MALODOROUS PERVERT!!!

M: Yes, but I came here for an argument!!

A: OH! Oh! I'm sorry! This is abuse!

M: Oh! Oh I see!

A: Aha! No, you want room 12A, next door.

M: Oh...Sorry...

A: Not at all!

A: (under his breath) stupid git.

(The man goes into room 12A. Another man is sitting behind a desk.)

Man: Is this the right room for an argument?

Other Man:(John Cleese) I've told you once.

Man: No you haven't!

Other Man: Yes I have.

M: When?

O: Just now.

M: No you didn't!

O: Yes I did!

M: You didn't!

O: I did!

M: You didn't!

O: I'm telling you, I did!

M: You did not!

O: Oh I'm sorry, is this a five minute argument, or the full half hour?

M: Ah! (taking out his wallet and paying) Just the five minutes.

O: Just the five minutes. Thank you.

O: Anyway, I did.

M: You most certainly did not!

O: Now let's get one thing quite clear: I most definitely told you!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh no you didn't!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: No you DIDN'T!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: No you DIDN'T!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: No you DIDN'T!

O: Oh yes I did!

M: Oh look, this isn't an argument!

(pause)

O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

(pause)

M: It's just contradiction!

O: No it isn't!

M: It IS!

O: It is NOT!

M: You just contradicted me!

O: No I didn't!

M: You DID!

O: No no no!

M: You did just then!

O: Nonsense!

M: (exasperated) Oh, this is futile!!

(pause)

O: No it isn't!

M: Yes it is!

(pause)

M: I came here for a good argument!

O: AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument!

M: An argument isn't just contradiction.

O: Well! it CAN be!

M: No it can't!

M: An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.

O: No it isn't!

M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.

O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!

M: Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'.

O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

O: Yes it is!

M: No it isn't!

O: Yes it is!

M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.

O: It is NOT!

M: It is!

O: Not at all!

M: It is!

(The Arguer hits a bell on his desk and stops.)

O: Thank you, that's it.

M: (stunned) What?

O: That's it. Good morning.

M: But I was just getting interested!

O: I'm sorry, the five minutes is up.

M: That was never five minutes just now!!

O: I'm afraid it was.

M: (leading on) No it wasn't.....

O: I'm sorry, I'm not allowed to argue any more.

M: WHAT??

O: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.

M: But that was never five minutes just now!
Oh Come on!
Oh this is...
This is ridiculous!


O: I told you... I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you PAY!

M: Oh all right. (takes out his wallet and pays again.) There you are.

O: Thank you.

M: (clears throat) Well...

O: Well WHAT?

M: That was never five minutes just now.

O: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!

M: Well I just paid!

O: No you didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I DID!!!

O: YOU didn't!

M: I don't want to argue about it!

O: Well I'm very sorry but you didn't pay!

M: Ah hah! Well if I didn't pay, why are you arguing??? Ah HAAAAAAHHH! Gotcha!

O: No you haven't!

M: Yes I have! If you're arguing, I must have paid.

O: Not necessarily. I *could* be arguing in my spare time.

M: I've had enough of this!

O: No you haven't.

M: Oh shut up!

(Man leaves the office)





Tl:dr.

hippietim
05-22-2012, 10:22 PM
Jamie and Hans, for two guys who seem to think this is a pointless debate and everything has been said already you sure are doing a good job at keeping the thread alive. I'm too lazy to count but I bet you guys have the most posts in this thread. :P

Serious Poo
05-22-2012, 11:58 PM
Ya know... I've got a sinking feeling that I need to order a sig limited private stock in green, brown and cream just so you pecan-friendly ninnies may finally see and hear the awesomeness and majesty that is Apple Pie a la Mode. And just to make it more funner, I'll ask for a sinker mahagony neck. :-)

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
05-23-2012, 12:24 AM
...for two guys who seem to think this is a pointless debate...
Nah, it isn't pointless, Tim. People have a right to express how they feel. But we also have clearly posted rules. #1 on that list (to paraphrase) is "Be Kind."

Here's the section of rule #1 that applies to some of this thread:
Any "trolling", personal attacks, or unbecoming behavior is against forum rules and won't be tolerated (and it just makes you look bad).

But, back to your point, if anyone got the impression that I feel like this debate is pointless, I sincerely apologize. That certainly is not the case. I re-read my posts and didn't see anything to suggest that at all. But, hey, there are many ways to interpret text and people see what they want to see.

Thanks for the feedback, Tim. Without it I might never have had the chance to clarify this point.

Hey look, I posted again! :lol:

JMintzer
05-23-2012, 06:33 AM
And since I'm looking to increase my post count, my participation was to try to "humorously" get the point across that the thread was beginning to simply go round and round and round.

Pretty much all points were made, and it was devolving into arguing for the sake of arguing.

Sorry if you felt it was simply "keeping the thread alive"...

I'll try to do better...

hippietim
05-23-2012, 09:12 AM
@Hans - I had actually intended to reply to this thread the other day but at the time one of your posts was the last one and the thread was locked so I assumed you had shut it down considering the matter closed. It left me thinking "so that's how it's going to be here".

@Jamie - I got the attempt at humor. And I don't even disagree. But you and others repeatedly saying it's beating a dead horse, going around and around, etc. is no different than actually beating a dead horse and going around and around.

And I was just bustin' y'all's chops to begin with - hence the smiley.

hippietim
05-23-2012, 09:41 AM
And while I'm here bumping the thread, I may as well throw my .02 in.

I don't care that they called the wood "sinker". It simply doesn't matter to me. However, I did assume it was reclaimed sunken wood. I've heard that use of the term for many years. Anyone that did a web search for sinker mahogany after seeing that on the PRS site would turn up hundreds of hit discussing reclaimed sunken wood. Pretty much all of the hits are for guitar tone wood.

I don't assume there was any malice on the part of anyone at PRS to begin with. But the simple fact that PRS felt compelled to release a video explaining that their use of the term differs from the industry at large indicates that at some point they realized that customers felt like they were being misled. A video probably does not make folks that care about this sort of thing feel any better about the matter.

I think continuing to use the term "sinker" is misleading given that they are obviously aware of the way it is being misinterpreted.

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
05-23-2012, 09:52 AM
Hans - I had actually intended to reply to this thread the other day but at the time one of your posts was the last one and the thread was locked so I assumed you had shut it down considering the matter closed.

It's all good, Tim. The time-out was an uncommon opportunity for people to cool the jets, realize (1) that some people were deliberately trying to start a fire, and (2) continue forward behaving as gentlemen. As Jamie suggested, the argument had become circuitous and people turned their attention from the issue to each other.

If nothing else, it gave Bennett (henceforth known to his pals as "Ned") time to create the golden nugget of hilarity that is the Destroyer. On a long enough timeline (like 5 minutes after it was posted), things like that become a fun part of a new culture - even for Bennett. It's a sign of emotional IQ, as far as I am concerned.

We're all here for the love of guitars. Sometimes that gets lost. If you know me, you know I totally get it.

Anyway... peace.

hippietim
05-23-2012, 09:55 AM
We're all here for the love of guitars.

Not entirely. Shawn is here for beer too. Speaking of which, what beer will be available at the Experience this year?

JMintzer
05-23-2012, 10:40 AM
We're all here for the love of guitars.

Not entirely. Shawn is here for beer too. Speaking of which, what beer will be available at the Experience this year?


Shawn is only anywhere for the beer...

Beer @ The Experience? No way!

Jamie, reminiscing about Tremonti going on a beer run for me and Kingsley...

JMintzer
05-23-2012, 10:41 AM
Oh, and like Hans said, the posts injecting a bit of humor help (hopefully) calm things down a bit...

Or not (@sshole!) :D :lol:


Jamie

docbennett
05-23-2012, 10:54 AM
Ned, the Destroyer, approves of this thread!

Dirty Bob
05-23-2012, 12:55 PM
I also wasn't trying to take away from the thread...just trying to stop the "destroying" and "lynching"

And profess my love for warm delicious apple pie... :mrgreen: :twisted:

Shawn@PRS
05-23-2012, 01:51 PM
It has come to our attention that there is a misunderstanding surrounding the term "sinker" mahogany as we used it to describe our Signature Limited model. When the wood was first brought to our attention Paul commented, "This wood is so dense, it would sink in water," so the nickname "sinker" was given. It was never our intention to mislead folks into believing it was reclaimed wood that had been submersed in water for a period of time. The truth is most of us had never heard this term used before, but we've since learned of the word's other use, and we apologize for the mix up.

PRS tries to be a transparent company. Those of you who are familiar with Paul and the PRS crew know this to be true.

Buickrob
05-23-2012, 02:00 PM
It has come to our attention that there is a misunderstanding surrounding the term "sinker" mahogany as we used it to describe our Signature Limited model. When the wood was first brought to our attention Paul commented, "This wood is so dense, it would sink in water," so the nickname "sinker" was given. It was never our intention to mislead folks into believing it was reclaimed wood that had been submersed in water for a period of time. The truth is most of us had never heard this term used before, but we've since learned of the word's other use, and we apologize for the mix up.

PRS tries to be a transparent company. Those of you who are familiar with Paul and the PRS crew know this to be true.

Now this I can get behind. A sincere apology instead of a video telling me why I was wrong to think that Sinker actually meant recovered wood. It is still a shame that some of us did not get what we thought we were buying if we bought our guitars early BUT this is stand up.

I still think it would have been awesome if my neck was cut by some dude in 1750 which a hatchet though ;)

Twinfan
05-23-2012, 02:33 PM
I still think it would have been awesome if my neck was cut by some dude in 1750 which a hatchet though ;)

Me too :D

LSchefman
05-23-2012, 06:52 PM
I still think it would have been awesome if my neck was cut by some dude in 1750 which a hatchet though ;)

That would be awesome.

A guillotine would be less painful, of course.

Buickrob
05-23-2012, 07:07 PM
I still think it would have been awesome if my neck was cut by some dude in 1750 which a hatchet though ;)

That would be awesome.

A guillotine would be less painful, of course.


A rusty butter knife would be less painful than arguing with you again. :mrgreen:

docbennett
05-23-2012, 08:16 PM
It has come to our attention that there is a misunderstanding surrounding the term "sinker" mahogany as we used it to describe our Signature Limited model. When the wood was first brought to our attention Paul commented, "This wood is so dense, it would sink in water," so the nickname "sinker" was given. It was never our intention to mislead folks into believing it was reclaimed wood that had been submersed in water for a period of time. The truth is most of us had never heard this term used before, but we've since learned of the word's other use, and we apologize for the mix up.

PRS tries to be a transparent company. Those of you who are familiar with Paul and the PRS crew know this to be true.

Very cool Shawn. I'm pretty sure that most of us enjoyed the debate itself, more than the actual issue of the true origin of the wood. Most of all (I think) never thought it was malicious or done with intent to mislead.

thanks for the comments. Much appreciated, at least by myself, owner of PS Sig #56.

-Bennett

LSchefman
05-23-2012, 09:09 PM
A rusty butter knife would be less painful than arguing with you again. :mrgreen:

Haha. That's the point.

Buickrob
05-24-2012, 10:39 AM
Just an FYI update, and last thing I will ever say about this publicly. I did send emails Monday and Wednesday to PRS Cust Serv. Did not even get a reply. Not that I really needed a reply, it obviously would not change my guitar. I did expect to at least hear something back. My last email said I unfortunately have to vote with my wallet going forward. Not that I buy a ton of new PRS but it's been 6-7 since 2009. First time I've ever had emails go unanswered by PRS.

I will say again though, the general apology here was a step in the right direction at least.

LSchefman
05-24-2012, 10:56 AM
Just an FYI update, and last thing I will ever say about this publicly. I did send emails Monday and Wednesday to PRS Cust Serv. Did not even get a reply. Not that I really needed a reply, it obviously would not change my guitar. I did expect to at least hear something back. My last email said I unfortunately have to vote with my wallet going forward. Not that I buy a ton of new PRS but it's been 6-7 since 2009. First time I've ever had emails go unanswered by PRS.

I will say again though, the general apology here was a step in the right direction at least.

A couple of things are driving me batty. In the same paragraph, you state "not that I really needed a reply," and that since you didn't get one, you're going to "vote with your wallet going forward."

Maybe you don't see a contradiction here. I don't want to start another argument, but you clearly did need a reply, and I sincerely hope you get one.

Also people are thanking Shawn for re-stating the very same explanation Paul Smith gave in his video, like it's somehow different. What's changed? That he said, in essence, "we're sorry for the mixup?"

JMintzer
05-24-2012, 11:00 AM
I received this e-mail yesterday from Shawn...


I will be out of the office until May 29th, 2012.
I will reply to your email upon my return.


Thank you.

Not an excuse, but maybe an explanation...


Jamie

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
05-24-2012, 11:03 AM
I did send emails Monday and Wednesday to PRS Cust Serv. Did not even get a reply. Not that I really needed a reply, it obviously would not change my guitar. I did expect to at least hear something back.
Yup. The man is on a well deserved vacation.

Shawn@PRS
05-24-2012, 12:35 PM
Just an FYI update, and last thing I will ever say about this publicly. I did send emails Monday and Wednesday to PRS Cust Serv. Did not even get a reply. Not that I really needed a reply, it obviously would not change my guitar. I did expect to at least hear something back. My last email said I unfortunately have to vote with my wallet going forward. Not that I buy a ton of new PRS but it's been 6-7 since 2009. First time I've ever had emails go unanswered by PRS.

I will say again though, the general apology here was a step in the right direction at least.

Rob,

I've been out of the office so I thought I'd post a reply here on the forum so that you didn't have to repost my email to you.

Buickrob
05-24-2012, 01:24 PM
A couple of things are driving me batty. In the same paragraph, you state "not that I really needed a reply," and that since you didn't get one, you're going to "vote with your wallet going forward."

Maybe you don't see a contradiction here. I don't want to start another argument, but you clearly did need a reply, and I sincerely hope you get one.

Also people are thanking Shawn for re-stating the very same explanation Paul Smith gave in his video, like it's somehow different. What's changed? That he said, in essence, "we're sorry for the mixup?"

Just when I think I got out.........

Jesus Christ, stop over ANALyzing every damn word. Somehow you think you know everything going on in other people's minds. You do not know what I need vs. what I want. I did not need a reply, I did expect one. Happy now? My decision to vote with my wallet was pretty much already made by that point.

Why is there no ignore function on this forum? I am using with great pleasure at other forums so I never see 'ole Les' posts.


I received this e-mail yesterday from Shawn...



Not an excuse, but maybe an explanation...


Jamie

Ahh, I emailed the general link on the PRS website and did not get an out of office.


Yup. The man is on a well deserved vacation.

I have no doubt it is well deserved, honestly.


Rob,

I've been out of the office so I thought I'd post a reply here on the forum so that you didn't have to repost my email to you.

Didn't realize you were out as the email address I wrote to did not kick back a message. Emails are usually replied to very quickly and honestly it seemed like direct communication was being avoided. Have a great vaca!

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
05-24-2012, 01:29 PM
Why is there no ignore function on this forum?There is.
1) Click on the username of the person you'd like to ignore.
2) Click [View profile] from the drop-down menu that appears.
3) Select [Add To Ignore List] from the options visible under their avatar.

Buickrob
05-24-2012, 01:30 PM
There is.
1) Click on the username of the person you'd like to ignore.
2) Click [View profile] from the drop-down menu that appears.
3) Select [Add To Ignore List] from the options visible under their avatar.


Yes, just saw that. Thank you sir!

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
05-24-2012, 01:33 PM
Yes, just saw that. Thank you sir!
No worries, Rob.

Obviously, I'd prefer that you guys actually talk to each other (offline) and work it out but that's why the feature is there.

LSchefman
05-24-2012, 08:30 PM
No worries, Rob.

Obviously, I'd prefer that you guys actually talk to each other (offline) and work it out but that's why the feature is there.

Hans, ever the gentleman!

But in this case...not necessary.

Dirty Bob
05-24-2012, 08:34 PM
i still think everyone should just tell each other to #!@&$! Off shake hands, put the disagreement behind them and grab a beer...

Random
05-25-2012, 12:03 AM
It has come to our attention that there is a misunderstanding surrounding the term "sinker" mahogany..................It was never our intention to mislead folks into believing it was reclaimed wood that had been submersed in water for a period of time. The truth is most of us had never heard this term used before, but we've since learned of the word's other use, and we apologize for the mix up................

I've watched this train wreck and stayed out of it. Should probably stay out of it now....but speaking plainly.......I find it unbelievable that anyone who works with wood professionally, let alone professional woodworkers making guitars for a number of decades, doesn't know of or hasn't heard of "sinker wood" as wood having been recovered from an underwater environment. Stories of this stuff has been around for decades. Sinker wood has been harvested for many years from lakes and rivers in every section of the country where wood was harvested in prior years. This stuff has been featured on many TV programs and wood working shows.... it was featured on this This Old House. This stuff has been discussed and featured in wood working and guitar forums for a number of years. Tacoma Guitars made acoustic guitar tops out of this stuff maybe 10-12 years ago, I have one.

I don't mean to personally characterize anyone but something here stinks like it fell out the wrong end of the horse.

BG

PRSHB2
05-25-2012, 01:43 AM
i still think everyone should just tell each other to #!@&$! Off shake hands, put the disagreement behind them and grab a beer...This x 2 + Slap

TGSCAN
05-26-2012, 12:14 AM
Rob

Can we see your guitar

PRSHB2
05-26-2012, 02:30 AM
Can we see your guitar
There you are. I will need to see your passport before boarding.

Buickrob
05-26-2012, 06:31 AM
Rob

Can we see your guitar


Yeah man.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/gnboy/P1040735.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/gnboy/a3c2c78b.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/gnboy/ac7ab237.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/gnboy/P1040738.jpg

jonnyhturbo
05-26-2012, 06:35 AM
^magnificent. How long have you had this guitar? mine used to look like that. now it has swatches of light brown running thru it. Yours seems to have some of that brown in the more shaded pics. I'll send pics soon.

jonnyhturbo
05-26-2012, 06:45 AM
It has come to our attention that there is a misunderstanding surrounding the term "sinker" mahogany as we used it to describe our Signature Limited model. When the wood was first brought to our attention Paul commented, "This wood is so dense, it would sink in water," so the nickname "sinker" was given. It was never our intention to mislead folks into believing it was reclaimed wood that had been submersed in water for a period of time. The truth is most of us had never heard this term used before, but we've since learned of the word's other use, and we apologize for the mix up.

PRS tries to be a transparent company. Those of you who are familiar with Paul and the PRS crew know this to be true.

so, let me get this right. Youre in the guitar building industry, have been for over 25 years, and had no knowlege of the meaning of the term "sinker mahogany?" While other manufacturers all know what it means, have tested it to have a bigger tone than regular mahogany, and use it on their guitars.

that is highly unlikely. some of us should feel as though our intelligence has been grossly insulted.

Im not trying to create conflict, or argue, or attack anyone. I'm not asking for my money back, or any other compensation.

It just that I'm pissed, and I'm letting you know it. And bringing in contrived excuses such as this only makes you look smaller.

thank you

JMintzer
05-26-2012, 06:59 AM
so, let me get this right. Youre in the guitar building industry, have been for over 25 years, and had no knowlege of the meaning of the term "sinker mahogany?" While other manufacturers all know what it means, have tested it to have a bigger tone than regular mahogany, and use it on their guitars.

that is highly unlikely. some of us should feel as though our intelligence has been grossly insulted.

Im not trying to create conflict, or argue, or attack anyone. I'm not asking for my money back, or any other compensation.

It just that I'm pissed, and I'm letting you know it. And bringing in contrived excuses such as this only makes you look smaller.

thank you

Yes, you are. This has been discussed, ad nauseum...

You have two choices.

Accept the explanation, or contact your dealer or PRS Customer service to rectify the situation.

But please, do not consider the third option of complaining about it again and again and again.

You've made your point. We get it...


Jamie

Buickrob
05-26-2012, 07:13 AM
^magnificent. How long have you had this guitar? mine used to look like that. now it has swatches of light brown running thru it. Yours seems to have some of that brown in the more shaded pics. I'll send pics soon.

I ordered this guitar right when my dealer got back from NAMM in January. I had it in hand just 2-3 weeks later as I recall.

docbennett
05-26-2012, 07:28 AM
This has been discussed, ad nauseum...
Jamie

We are just pikers compared to the discussion this has brought on TGP. 204 posts and counting to-date!

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=13173414#post13173414

tdarian
05-26-2012, 09:48 AM
Gee, all this time I thought the term "Sinker" just meant that it was yet another otherwise great guitar with a neck that just could not quite measure up.

TGSCAN
05-26-2012, 10:03 AM
Very cool looking SIG bro !

and damn, you have good taste in pedal boards !

I am also a proud "wood" junky ........

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/gnboy/ac7ab237.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8144/7269503630_61b8a774bf_o.jpg

Buickrob
05-26-2012, 10:50 AM
Very cool looking SIG bro !

and damn, you have good taste in pedal boards !

I am also a proud "wood" junky ........

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/gnboy/ac7ab237.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8144/7269503630_61b8a774bf_o.jpg

Yum, I mean sweet!

Had a guy on TGP make the tweed frame and I did the flame top. Cool project for under $180!

Dirty Bob
05-26-2012, 10:50 AM
Very cool looking SIG bro !

and damn, you have good taste in pedal boards !

I am also a proud "wood" junky ........

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/gnboy/ac7ab237.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8144/7269503630_61b8a774bf_o.jpg

That's what I'm planning on having for dinner tonight!

Random
05-26-2012, 12:30 PM
Quit beating around the bush and tell us what you really think.

This looks like an unnecesary and self induced train wreck.......

I feel bad for them. PRS is a 1st rate production guitar company with a first rate product. It still benefits from from the input of the artisan luthier who inspired the company. I have to believe they're going to do great things in the future just like they have in the past.

...In the interest of full disclosure....I acknowledge an alternative use of the term "Train Wreck".



....and I'm slowly building up the courage to send you one of my McBrazzies to get whacked.

Regards...

TGSCAN
05-26-2012, 12:47 PM
That's what I'm planning on having for dinner tonight!

Pedals ??

;-))

Buickrob
05-26-2012, 01:02 PM
Pedals ??

;-))

No, pedals and melted butter:)

Dirty Bob
05-26-2012, 01:04 PM
Very cool looking SIG bro !

and damn, you have good taste in pedal boards !

I am also a proud "wood" junky ........

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/gnboy/ac7ab237.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8144/7269503630_61b8a774bf_o.jpg


Pedals ??

;-))

Are you referring to the metal muff? A bit too woolley for my tastes!

I was talking about the giant bugs!

Hey how do you do smiley faces when on your phone?

SinglecutGuy
05-26-2012, 06:10 PM
I'm gonna jump in here a touch late. I'm not an owner of one of the guitars in question, but I do own many PRS guitars, and I just have to say that on the most simple and basic of levels, I'm disappointed in this situation.

I'm going to re-post something that was said in the TGP thread called "PRS and the Sinker Mahogany Controversy", that I think really is the best and most productive thing I have read so far in this whole debate. I hope this matter is being taken seriously.


PRS has always stood for integrity. Its good name and goodwill are its most valuable assets. Their response so far doesn't make sense to me. If they want this controversy to continue, refusing to change their name for the wood and adjust their marketing materials accordingly is an effective way to do so (though perhaps they already have).

Someone Paul trusts should sit him down and level with him: put your pride and personal feelings aside - you've made a mistake that could haunt your company, employees, and self for a long time to come if you don't fix it quickly. Pull your "explanatory" video with the fidgety body language and excuses. Replace it with a new one in which you apologize "for having unintentionally created confusion," and offer to buy back the so-called sinker wood neck guitars from any original owners who request a refund. Johnson & Johnson dealt with their far far worse Tylenol issues in 1982 and turned lemons into sweet 'aid by focusing on their most valuable asset - their customers' long-term trust and goodwill. Not a bad model.

I believe Mr. Silberman has spoken well.

tdarian
05-26-2012, 06:13 PM
I don't own a Siggy either, but I read jon's post and it rang true to me as well.

Mike Duncan
05-26-2012, 06:49 PM
I mentioned the term at a family birthday party today just to see what the non-guitar interested thought it meant. Yes, they all, from age 29 to 87, thought it would mean old, reclaimed sunken wood.

The Duncan and Cox family .02.


Me personally? Couldn't care less.

Serious Poo
05-26-2012, 06:56 PM
Jon nailed it IMHO.

Zilmo
05-26-2012, 08:01 PM
Jon nailed it IMHO.


I agree.

PRSHB2
05-26-2012, 08:10 PM
Im not trying to create conflict, or argue, or attack anyone. I'm not asking for my money back, or any other compensation.
This statement is pure BS. You attacked me directly without any provocation. After being on several forums for numerous years, I can say that nobody has ever been as rude as you have been. Honestly I'm amazed that you haven't been banned from this site. I could fill you in on some facts that have obviously abated you, but I won't waste my time. I realize that you must feel very powerful hiding behind your keyboard, but it won't last long. Good riddance to you.

Zilmo
05-26-2012, 08:43 PM
PRS makes such great guitars, its a shame they need to debase thier credibility with such false claims. Paul is squirming around in that vid like a kid that got caught with his hands in the cookie jar.

When i bought my 2 siggys, my wife asked why they cost so much, and what was so special about them. I then explained that the necks were made from 100 year old sinker wood that were recovered from a lake in south america.

She looked at me and said "really? youved been conned, buddy." but i insisted it was true, with my faith in what PRS said, that it was sinker mahogany, an industry standard. That guitar felt like gold in my hands, right at that moment.

Upon finding out that the wood is faux sinker mahongany, I feel sad that Paul lied to us, in turn making me lie to my wife. How can I justify paying full price for something misrepresented in what I had thought I was getting?

Even though the guitar is great, I feel I have been let down by the man himself. I will never again believe any of the claims they put forth about thier product, probably never buy another PRS, and I now view PRS himself in a different character light.

I'll give you $100 to post a pick of your two Siggys with your user name on a piece of paper between them.

Otherwise, just go away.

Buickrob
05-27-2012, 04:50 AM
has not responded to my offer.

For $10 can I take two pics of my one sig? If you ask nicely I'll make sure to get my feet in the pics, if you are into that;)

Happy Memorial Day Weekend guys!

swede71
05-27-2012, 05:50 AM
In sweden this is a 6500 $ guitar.I hope all you guys have a great sounding guitar.Obviously there is some good dense mahogany in those neck.Whats the deal here?I dont understand this thread.If i bought a guitar that cost that much i couldnt care less if its mahogany from Atlantis or from the Amazonas inland.Do we hear with our eyes here?Those 408 pickups sound amazing to me.How does it sound and how does it feel to play?

Shawn@PRS
05-27-2012, 06:26 AM
Seriously guys, stop the personal attacks

jonnyhturbo
05-27-2012, 06:34 AM
Seriously guys, stop the personal attacks

thanks Shawn, not attacking anyone, just defending myself and my opinion and that i am real.

clmazza
05-27-2012, 06:41 AM
AWESOME! :)


Yeah man.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/gnboy/P1040735.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/gnboy/a3c2c78b.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/gnboy/ac7ab237.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49/gnboy/P1040738.jpg

crgtr
05-27-2012, 12:00 PM
I like both my Sig's. There IS a difference in the sustain on both of these compared to my other gtrs. PRS, Fender, whatever. So I do think that this run of "hog" is special. I also thought that it meant it was old wood recovered from the bottom of some pond/river but it really doesn't matter to me. Unplugged they ring/sustain forever. So, just my opinion.
http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd490/crgtr/PRS%20SIG%20LTD/photobucket-4101-1331409229445.jpg
http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd490/crgtr/PRS%20SIG%20LTD/photobucket-4233-1331409230661.jpg
Kate likes them both.
http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd490/crgtr/PRS%20SIG%20LTD/IMG_2673.jpg
But I think she prefers "Norma"..One of my fave pics of Kate. Her curiosity of everything has made me look at things in a whole new way.
http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd490/crgtr/PRS%20SIG%20LTD/IMG_2678.jpg

LSchefman
05-27-2012, 01:47 PM
It doesn't matter what I think about the core issue at this point, so the question becomes, "What's a workable and good solution?" Silberman suggests what seems on the surface to be a sensible solution, buy back the guitars from people who'd rather have the money.

There are 400 Sig Ltds and however many PS versions. That could amount to a couple of million dollars. Is it really workable to saddle PRS with that kind of loss in this very shaky economy? After all, no one disputes that the guitars are, in fact, excellent guitars. The only issue is the "magic" stuff, the 200 year old wood bragging rights, the coolness, whatever you want to call it.

I paid within a hair of Sig money for an Artist V that didn't have any of that Sinker stuff, and didn't have the special pickups or electronics. I have a real question as to how much, if anything, PRS factored the Sinker thing into the price. We all know it would be anyone's guess. I'm willing to bet that they came up with a price for the package, and didn't sit around with calculators saying, "Let's see, we're going to charge X for this quality of wood, and Y for the binding on the neck, and Z because of this switch, etc. So how does one adjust for what's fair?

What if Silberman's suggestion would hamper PRS' ability to operate or come up with new products? (Note, I say "What if" because I am not privy to PRS' finances obviously I'm guessing). But if it came to that, is it what you guys really want to see happen?

Then what happens with guys like BuickRob, who have their guitars for sale? What if they sell them, and later claim that they couldn't get a fair price for them because of the lack of Sinker wood? There's still a potential small claim there, but multiply the claims, and you have an unknown potential for further trouble. There are in fact several Sigs for sale on VR right now.

And what about the people who'd rather just keep the guitar, but still want something to show for their trouble?

It's a big can of worms. A simple solution isn't as easy as one might think.

tdarian
05-27-2012, 02:31 PM
Man, if those things had biggers necks I'd buy one. Had to get that of my chest.

Apemantus
05-27-2012, 03:05 PM
I paid within a hair of Sig money for an Artist V that didn't have any of that Sinker stuff, and didn't have the special pickups or electronics. I have a real question as to how much, if anything, PRS factored the Sinker thing into the price.

This is a good point. The original selling price for the production Signature guitars did not seem high enough (to me) to include the added cost of extra-rare, salvaged, specialty "sinker" wood. I'm not including the PS run because I don't know much about PS pricing. But I don't really see how anyone was hurt by paying ~4K (new) for a guitar that seems to be worth about ~4K (new) when you compare these high-end production PRS guitars to each other.

hippietim
05-27-2012, 03:55 PM
I'll give you $100 to post a pick of your two Siggys with your user name on a piece of paper between them.

Otherwise, just go away.

I'll gladly post a picture of my two Siggy's with my user name on a piece of paper between them for $1 and not a penny more. I'll even toss a VR TRC on one of them if you want.

Dirty Bob
05-27-2012, 04:11 PM
I posted some long winded response earlier about arbitrage opportunities yadda yadda..then realized it was Chris' finish thread...anyway

For those who feel cheated wronged etc...that's a terrible feeling to have and you should take whatever action that you feel is necessary and that is legal to rectify the problem.

I hope whatever is going on works out for all parties involved.

As for me I'm thinking of buying one or two of these instruments...they are phenomenal and full of innovation...

Seems to be a bunch on the relative cheap right now...

Considering original cost versus other offerings...seems to be a nice opportunity in the used market.

Everybody needs to play some music and chill out! Life could be worse!

11top
05-27-2012, 04:14 PM
I like my Sig, and it was well worth what I paid for it new. To even think that I'd ask for my money back is absurd.

ldg0352
05-27-2012, 04:43 PM
I like my Sig, and it was well worth what I paid for it new. To even think that I'd ask for my money back is absurd.

+1....and then some.

Zilmo
05-27-2012, 05:04 PM
I'd love to get a stoptail version and whack a hole in it.

docbennett
05-27-2012, 05:21 PM
Lemme tell ya from personal experience.

Having a Private Stock Sig and finding out that the neck may not be "real genuine recovered submerged lumber" is not nearly as bad as when I bought a "100% original Vintage Gibson" and later found out that it had been modified and sold by a reputable dealer as unmolested. Same thing happened with a '61 Strat about 7 years ago. These experiences soured me on the "vintage market".

this "debacle" is more debate than damage. I'm keeping my Sig. I will buy many more PRS (and I own many already).

And, I do think that Paul and the company should offer to either buy back, exchange or otherwise "credit" anyone who bought a signature and who feels as if they deserve some restitution. None for me thanks. And I still think the company is topnotch. I find this to be an interesting anomaly and look forward to seeing how it resolves.

http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/drugdetox/howie%20at%20union%20county%20music%20fest%20sept% 2017%202011/1316295246157-1.jpg

http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/drugdetox/howie%20at%20union%20county%20music%20fest%20sept% 2017%202011/1316299452939-1.jpg

http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/drugdetox/howie%20at%20union%20county%20music%20fest%20sept% 2017%202011/2011-09-17_18-36-49_102-1.jpg

http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/drugdetox/howie%20at%20union%20county%20music%20fest%20sept% 2017%202011/1316299647317-1.jpg



http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/drugdetox/howie%20at%20union%20county%20music%20fest%20sept% 2017%202011/1316299621091-1.jpg


http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/drugdetox/howie%20at%20union%20county%20music%20fest%20sept% 2017%202011/2011-09-17_18-48-28_663-1-1.jpg

I asked Howie what he thought of this controversy....


http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab271/drugdetox/howie%20at%20union%20county%20music%20fest%20sept% 2017%202011/2011-09-17_17-21-41_971-1.jpg

cwhenke
05-27-2012, 05:57 PM
I like both my Sig's. There IS a difference in the sustain on both of these compared to my other gtrs. PRS, Fender, whatever. So I do think that this run of "hog" is special. I also thought that it meant it was old wood recovered from the bottom of some pond/river but it really doesn't matter to me. Unplugged they ring/sustain forever. So, just my opinion.
http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd490/crgtr/PRS%20SIG%20LTD/photobucket-4101-1331409229445.jpg
http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd490/crgtr/PRS%20SIG%20LTD/photobucket-4233-1331409230661.jpg
Kate likes them both.
http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd490/crgtr/PRS%20SIG%20LTD/IMG_2673.jpg
But I think she prefers "Norma"..One of my fave pics of Kate. Her curiosity of everything has made me look at things in a whole new way.
http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd490/crgtr/PRS%20SIG%20LTD/IMG_2678.jpg

Damn, Chris, she is ADORABLE.

markie
05-27-2012, 07:04 PM
It doesn't matter what I think about the core issue at this point, so the question becomes, "What's a workable and good solution?" Silberman suggests what seems on the surface to be a sensible solution, buy back the guitars from people who'd rather have the money.

There are 400 Sig Ltds and however many PS versions. That could amount to a couple of million dollars. Is it really workable to saddle PRS with that kind of loss in this very shaky economy? After all, no one disputes that the guitars are, in fact, excellent guitars. The only issue is the "magic" stuff, the 200 year old wood bragging rights, the coolness, whatever you want to call it.

I paid within a hair of Sig money for an Artist V that didn't have any of that Sinker stuff, and didn't have the special pickups or electronics. I have a real question as to how much, if anything, PRS factored the Sinker thing into the price. We all know it would be anyone's guess. I'm willing to bet that they came up with a price for the package, and didn't sit around with calculators saying, "Let's see, we're going to charge X for this quality of wood, and Y for the binding on the neck, and Z because of this switch, etc. So how does one adjust for what's fair?

What if Silberman's suggestion would hamper PRS' ability to operate or come up with new products? (Note, I say "What if" because I am not privy to PRS' finances obviously I'm guessing). But if it came to that, is it what you guys really want to see happen?

Then what happens with guys like BuickRob, who have their guitars for sale? What if they sell them, and later claim that they couldn't get a fair price for them because of the lack of Sinker wood? There's still a potential small claim there, but multiply the claims, and you have an unknown potential for further trouble. There are in fact several Sigs for sale on VR right now.

And what about the people who'd rather just keep the guitar, but still want something to show for their trouble?

It's a big can of worms. A simple solution isn't as easy as one might think.




Very well said Les! I don't particularly want to see PRS go out of business. Also, I do not wish "Something to show for my trouble"............... Something about my moral values .



That being said................................ I certainly thought my neck came from the bottom of a Lake!

LSchefman
05-27-2012, 07:27 PM
Very well said Les! I don't particularly want to see PRS go out of business. Also, I do not wish "Something to show for my trouble"............... Something about my moral values .



That being said................................ I certainly thought my neck came from the bottom of a Lake!

Markie, I have a lovely spring fed lake right by my house. And I have some rope, and an anchor. Send the guitar and consider the problem solved. How long ya want it left on the bottom? ;)

LSchefman
05-27-2012, 07:40 PM
As for me I'm thinking of buying one or two of these instruments...they are phenomenal and full of innovation...

Seems to be a bunch on the relative cheap right now...

Considering original cost versus other offerings...seems to be a nice opportunity in the used market.

I completely agree. I don't know if current prices have anything to do with what we've been discussing, or simply because the economy is sluggish, but these are bargains. Most of the ones I've seen for sale look like they've hardly been played!

I'd love to own one with a trem at some point.

Zilmo
05-27-2012, 08:06 PM
Anyone that hates their stoptail Siggy is invited to send it my way for some tender loving care!

Dirty Bob
05-27-2012, 08:42 PM
I'd love to get a stoptail version and whack a hole in it.

Now this sounds like a great idea!

I think Someone has one of these in a PS version...amazing looking axe if I remember correctly.

PRSHB2
05-27-2012, 11:59 PM
I completely agree. I don't know if current prices have anything to do with what we've been discussing, or simply because the economy is sluggish, but these are bargains. Most of the ones I've seen for sale look like they've hardly been played!

I'd love to own one with a trem at some point.
I personally know of one that is still in mint condition, 4 hours of play time, with a trem in Blackgold. PM me if interested. Not mine, at least not anymore, but a killer deal.

Twinfan
05-28-2012, 02:03 AM
I'd love to get a stoptail version and whack a hole in it.


I think Someone has one of these in a PS version...amazing looking axe if I remember correctly.

Do you mean mine? If so - it's just fine as it is thanks ;)

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r267/junkacct/Guitar%20stuff/2011-10-30154620.jpg

george johnson
05-28-2012, 02:27 AM
^^ Yes, that is fine!

Dirty Bob
05-28-2012, 06:48 AM
Do you mean mine? If so - it's just fine as it is thanks ;)

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r267/junkacct/Guitar%20stuff/2011-10-30154620.jpg

No. I didn't mean yours. I love yours...it's one of my favorite PS...kills me every time I see it....however the 2TEK is a game changing bridge IMHO...I would love it in a sig...PS or production. dang it...now I have to go through the photos I saved of the old PS thread to see if one actually exists or if I just made it up...maybe I'm thinking of a different one... I thought it had custom knobs too...

Found it PS 3680...amazing! Check the show your PS thread for pics...I'm on my phone right now.

justmund
05-28-2012, 07:39 AM
So the scenario is PRSh and co. are sitting around designing the Sig Ltd, have these denser than average hog blanks, they go "you know what, we're sick of making and innovating awesome axes for our legions of adoring fans, let's screw them over and make them believe it's been sitting at the bottom of a lake or river for hundreds of years, they'll never know the difference right? Then if someone calls us on it, we'll just put our hands in the air and say we didn't know" (cue belly laughs all round)

Bloody unlikely story. Honest boo boo and I have accepted the PRS response.

To me, this "issue" doesn't detract from the percieved value, they're all the same (PS aside), however if some had "sinker" and some didn't, then that would be a different story.

I still want one, like really really want one. The only reason I ever thought it was "sinker" by "that" definition is because I read it on BaM (along with all the rave reviews on the tone, the sustain and the versatility of the 408s).

My 0.02c

TGSCAN
05-28-2012, 01:06 PM
"My 0.02c"

that is a solid 2 cents ! (sense)

Daniel
05-28-2012, 05:26 PM
I own two of these guitars, one Private Stock (#6/100) and one from the limited run. Awesome guitars. I read the specs before I bought them and I was not cheated, deceived nor mislead. I got what I paid for and I certainly got my money's worth and more. I've read enough to know that "sinker" is nothing more than a marketing term. There is no industry standard definition of sinker wood. PRS never assigned any age to the wood used in these necks. Some people may have read the word "sinker" and put their own meaning on the word based on what they'd read in sales literature for other products or the internet (:rolleyes:) but that is their own failure, not PRS'. Had PRS claimed, "This is mahogany from a tree cut in 1875 that spent 135 years at the bottom of a swamp in Honduras and was recovered in 2010" then I think there would have been deception. They made no such claim. PRS rocks.

Faded
05-28-2012, 09:50 PM
I own two of these guitars, one Private Stock (#6/100) and one from the limited run. Awesome guitars. I read the specs before I bought them and I was not cheated, deceived nor mislead. I got what I paid for and I certainly got my money's worth and more. I've read enough to know that "sinker" is nothing more than a marketing term. There is no industry standard definition of sinker wood. PRS never assigned any age to the wood used in these necks. Some people may have read the word "sinker" and put their own meaning on the word based on what they'd read in sales literature for other products or the internet (:rolleyes:) but that is their own failure, not PRS'. Had PRS claimed, "This is mahogany from a tree cut in 1875 that spent 135 years at the bottom of a swamp in Honduras and was recovered in 2010" then I think there would have been deception. They made no such claim. PRS rocks.

You are right PRSh made no claim, but his artist did...

Check at the 3:00 minute mark and then tell me Paul didn't know what "Sinker" meant...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_2PvOZqwbo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I don't think it matters either way to the tone of these great instruments and I'd like to own one someday, but the notion that Paul was ignorant and just didn know is BS.

GC Ron
05-28-2012, 10:48 PM
You are right PRSh made no claim, but his artist did...

Check at the 3:00 minute mark and then tell me Paul didn't know what "Sinker" meant...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_2PvOZqwbo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I don't think it matters either way to the tone of these great instruments and I'd like to own one someday, but the notion that Paul was ignorant and just didn know is BS.

Whoops.

Daniel
05-28-2012, 11:58 PM
You are right PRSh made no claim, but his artist did...

Check at the 3:00 minute mark and then tell me Paul didn't know what "Sinker" meant...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_2PvOZqwbo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I don't think it matters either way to the tone of these great instruments and I'd like to own one someday, but the notion that Paul was ignorant and just didn know is BS.


I have no way to know what Paul Smith knew. Neither do you. I know what Paul said he knew and I am not going to call him a liar. Here's something you surely can do; please define "sinker mahogany".

Faded
05-29-2012, 12:41 AM
I have no way to know what Paul Smith knew. Neither do you. I know what Paul said he knew and I am not going to call him a liar. Here's something you surely can do; please define "sinker mahogany".

It's been well defined within the last 17 pages and Mr Grissom gave a rather in depth definition of the term according to his conversations with Paul which is in direct contrast to the statement released by PRSh recently. I leave you to make your own conclusions.

veinbuster
05-29-2012, 01:25 PM
The only thing all of this makes me wonder is where is the cause and affect that results in a god sound. I suspect that what makes the neck sound good is that it was heavy enough to have been under water, not that it actually was under water.
I wonder how long it would take to run a proper experiment.

11top
05-29-2012, 01:33 PM
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c395/11top/tumblr_lnedj5DrAL1qdb2ac.gif

Blackbird
05-29-2012, 02:15 PM
You are right PRSh made no claim, but his artist did...

Check at the 3:00 minute mark and then tell me Paul didn't know what "Sinker" meant...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_2PvOZqwbo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I don't think it matters either way to the tone of these great instruments and I'd like to own one someday, but the notion that Paul was ignorant and just didn know is BS.

Wow. Kind of hard to marry that description with Shawn's response. This reminds me of Steve Jobs denying anything was wrong with ip4's antenna, telling the consumer they are holding the phone incorrectly. Eventually that blew over and people continued to buy iPhones just as before. I'm sure the same will happen here. Just wish they wouldnt have taken the "we didnt know" stance, when there's a video obviously contradicting that.

But alas, I buy guitars because of the way they sound, feel, and look. Not because the head of the company is a holy and righteous person devoid of ego.

tdarian
05-29-2012, 02:26 PM
I think I'll get a big necked Tele type until this blows over.

Daniel
05-29-2012, 04:59 PM
It's been well defined within the last 17 pages and Mr Grissom gave a rather in depth definition of the term according to his conversations with Paul which is in direct contrast to the statement released by PRSh recently. I leave you to make your own conclusions.

No, it hasn't. Please define sinker mahogany. David Grissom's rambling description is at odds with descriptions you can find elsewhere and it is clear he is not an expert in the field.

Faded
05-29-2012, 05:33 PM
David Grissom's rambling description

...Which he was quoting from Paul...


is at odds with descriptions you can find elsewhere

...Elsewhere...like in Paul's recent video description. One information source (Paul) two conflicting definitions.


it is clear he is not an expert in the field.

Absolutely correct. He's a guitar player and never claims to be anything other, but in the video he is recalling his conversation with an expert.

Blackbird
05-29-2012, 05:34 PM
No, it hasn't. Please define sinker mahogany. David Grissom's rambling description is at odds with descriptions you can find elsewhere and it is clear he is not an expert in the field.

Since you seem to be an authority, perhaps YOU could provide the definition of sinker mahogany and how it differs from Grissom's "rambling description."
Frankly, I think his "rambling description" seemed pretty accurate, in comparison to the limited "definitions" of this term. Maybe you have superior Google skills or an extensive woodworking resume, and can educate us.

JMintzer
05-29-2012, 07:14 PM
Round and round we go...

http://www.ocmodshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/merry-go-round.jpg


Jamie

LSchefman
05-29-2012, 07:32 PM
Round and round we go...

http://www.ocmodshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/merry-go-round.jpg


Jamie

Here's an idea: organize everyone into two teams, give 'em uniforms and guns, and host a little war!

Put some bleachers out in the sun, and have it on Highway 61. ;)

The mods could serve as the International Red Cross during the conflict, and the International War Crimes Tribunal afterward.

ldg0352
05-29-2012, 07:37 PM
Round and round we go...

http://www.ocmodshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/merry-go-round.jpg


Jamie


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGQZXA54gjU

Dirty Bob
05-29-2012, 08:09 PM
Funny you mentioned a war Les...I can't tell if this is just about Sinker still...or also has something to do with Markie's feces throwing monkeys.

So I shall try it one more time.

I like pie...since apple apparently didn't work how about peach?

Again I just think people need to be a bit more civil. Nothing wrong with productive discussion or disagreements...just feces throwing monkeys.

The other issue I have with this thread or the other threads in relation to all of this is that it has caused a lot of other good productive conversation that is typical of this community to be tossed carelessly on the back burner.

So...
I want some sticky gooey peach pie goodness...anyone else with me? Playing guitar and delving into a nice peach pie...sure sounds better to me than trying desperately to one up eachother on an Internet forum.

aristotle
05-29-2012, 09:44 PM
All I know is that I purchased one of these (my first of 2) when they hit the retailers. I looked through the case candy as I was trying it out, and the term "sinker" was used on the certificate. I asked the sales guy what that meant, and he clearly stated that it wasn't reclaimed wood from underwater, but was just a marketing term used to convey the fact that it was dense. This, well before any of this controversy. It didn't mean much to me personally since I'd never heard of "sinker" wood, and didn't know that it had any meaning in the luthier business. Point is that if the sales guy knew what it was, and was telling customers what it was, it doesn't seem likely that there was some sort of master plan to dupe the public. Educated retailers knew enough to accurately describe the product, so they at least must have been told what it was.

Daniel
05-29-2012, 10:42 PM
...Which he was quoting from Paul...



...Elsewhere...like in Paul's recent video description. One information source (Paul) two conflicting definitions.



Absolutely correct. He's a guitar player and never claims to be anything other, but in the video he is recalling his conversation with an expert.

Grisson never said he was quoting anyone and he never said his only information came from Mr. Smith. He only said he first heard of it from Mr. Smith. The only word we have from Paul Smith is what is in the video he made and he did not conflict himself. Please define sinker mahogany.


Since you seem to be an authority, perhaps YOU could provide the definition of sinker mahogany and how it differs from Grissom's "rambling description."
Frankly, I think his "rambling description" seemed pretty accurate, in comparison to the limited "definitions" of this term. Maybe you have superior Google skills or an extensive woodworking resume, and can educate us.

Waiting for the expert to stop evading the question. I am not an expert and that's why I asked for an industry standard definition. You say Grissom's description is "pretty accurate" so you must know the definition. Please share.

Daniel
05-29-2012, 10:53 PM
Round and round we go...

http://www.ocmodshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/merry-go-round.jpg


Jamie

Yes Jamie, I know. I've read enough BS about this too so I though I'd call the question. People keep writing that Paul Smith knew this made-up marketing term to mean something other than what he has said (calling him a liar) so I'd like them to state the official definition (and of course they'll need to give an authortative source). No takers. Go figure.

SuperFly53
05-29-2012, 11:14 PM
Played my SigLtd for a couple of hours tonight. The thing is a monster! I felt a little let down initially with the "sinker controversy," but there is no way I would give it back for a refund. I could not replace this guitar with a better one. It is far and away the best PRS I have ever had (and I have had many).

Who's to say that this "sinker" mahogany is not better tonally than sinker mahogany??

I'll go one better and say that I would not trade my guitar for one like it with mahogany that was recovered from sunken old growth because I don't think it could sound any better.

sergiodeblanc
05-29-2012, 11:40 PM
Wacka wacka!

pontaeri
05-29-2012, 11:52 PM
I see why this is going on,

Now instead of it being PRSh deception or not, now its moved to people trying to figure out if David G is correct in saying sinker is sunken mahogany and if his authority and expertise is right in saying that definition

or debating that PRSh and his artist aren't reading the same script in the marketing . . .

then you have people debating that sinker mahogany is NOT drawn from mahogany that was underwater and pulled up to be used in the guitar because David G's sources or David G is 'just a player and not a tree biologist or ax men or wood worker'.

But regardless of the debate, sinker mahogany is wood that was sunken underwater (for a time).

and black is black that's a fact.

and if it plays right, sounds right, it should be kept . . . right!

regarding PRSh's definition and if it was done intentionally or not well go back and on other forums about this debate . ..

But its really funny though if you play one then go to other. the Songify guy should make a video on the two:

David G
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_2PvOZqwbo


PRSh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3nKxOZQpuM

Hopeful Sinner
05-30-2012, 12:02 AM
OK, I've followed this thread and kept a lid on my beef with PRS but no more! Mine also deals with a deception involving Mr Smith and Mr Grissom... I recently bought a DGT Standard and I love how it plays, love how it looks and love how it sounds. Here's the issue, I can't seem to locate the "T" on my "DGT".. Not sure if they are all this way, but mine does have a vibrato, but no tremolo?!? So, now I want reparation!

A new TRC should suffice. One that says "DGV" to be exact.

Oh, and a video explanation from Paul too and then I'll be happy.

Wait one more thing, my last demand is PIE.. For the love of all that is good, please give us PIE...

cosmic_ape
05-30-2012, 01:35 AM
All I know is that I purchased one of these (my first of 2) when they hit the retailers. I looked through the case candy as I was trying it out, and the term "sinker" was used on the certificate. I asked the sales guy what that meant, and he clearly stated that it wasn't reclaimed wood from underwater, but was just a marketing term used to convey the fact that it was dense. This, well before any of this controversy. It didn't mean much to me personally since I'd never heard of "sinker" wood, and didn't know that it had any meaning in the luthier business. Point is that if the sales guy knew what it was, and was telling customers what it was, it doesn't seem likely that there was some sort of master plan to dupe the public. Educated retailers knew enough to accurately describe the product, so they at least must have been told what it was.

There's your answer.

/thread

Faded
05-30-2012, 02:00 AM
Grisson never said he was quoting anyone and he never said his only information came from Mr. Smith. He only said he first heard of it from Mr. Smith. The only word we have from Paul Smith is what is in the video he made and he did not conflict himself. Please define sinker mahogany.



Waiting for the expert to stop evading the question. I am not an expert and that's why I asked for an industry standard definition.



The first part of your post is incorrect, What video did you watch? The second part both humbles and confuses me that you would call me an expert ;) (I'm not) but I promise I'm not evading anything. David is very clearly paraphrasing an actual conversation that took place between him and Paul. So to make it extra clear for you ill go ahead and transcribe David Grissoms words at the same time giving you not one, but two definitions, that's value!

DG:
"And Im like what is Sinker Mahogany? And he (Paul) explained to me that Sinker Mahogany is uh the blanks come from mahogany trees that have been cut down and apparently they are too close to the river or lake uh that they grow next to that they fall in the water, they go to the bottom of the river or the lake. They're there for a number of years and the process, uh, the pressure thats put on the wood underneath the water causes the sugar , the naturally occuring sugars and minerals in the wood to break down quicker than they would otherwise..."

There is a definition ^ We shall henceforth refer to it as PRShDEF#ONE, it is in line with the industry standard definition of Sinker Mahogany***(see references below)

He continues with

"You know he (Paul) also explained to me that if you take a 400 year old Stradivarius violin, that process is occuring within that guitar, the difference here is that you have a wood that is available in very limited quantities, but the process of those compounds breaking down occurs in a much quicker pace so the effect is that the wood itself is much more resonant"

He goes on to conclude this section with

DG: "So Paul says hes been trying to get a hold of this wood (the reclaimed river wood referenced as PRShDEF#ONE)for 20 years



Lets move on a bit to the video of PRSh at the factory, you know the one where he discuses "Finding a truckload of wood so heavy and dense the illusion is that it would sink in water"

Lets refer to this definition as PRShDEF#TWO

We now have two very different definitions (PRShDEF#ONE and PRShDEF#TWO) of Sinker Mahogany credited to one man. This creates confusion and quite apparently controversy among those who expect one or the other.

My original intention in posting the Grissom video was to demonstrate that Paul knew what the industry standard term for SM was (PRShDEF#ONE), so much so that he educated one of his most famous artists on its provenence All the while taking a different wood (PRShDEF#TWO) and naming it the same thing. This sounds like disingenuous marketing to me.

I dont think there was some massive conspiracy in Maryland to dupe guitar players around the world, PRS has a long history of great instruments and customer service. I just think the hype machine got a bit ahead of itself here and someone demonstrated a poor lack of judgement

I would also like to make it clear that I dont care if wood comes out of a river or the Popes back yard if it sounds good im all for it, I cant wait to try one of the SIG LTD's even with the unfortunate marketing gimmick its now attached to.


***Here are sources backing my above claim that reclaimed wood that has been submerged is referred to as 'Sinker' in the industry at large thus constituting a standard definition, let me know if you need more...

http://rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_42
http://mandoweb.com/Instruments/Martin-CS-D18-12/3105
http://www.hearnehardwoods.com/flitch/mahogany/a7966-a7975.mahogany/flitch.html
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/66607
http://www.dogtrot-lumber.com/lumber/lumber6000.htm

AP515
05-30-2012, 10:55 AM
Controversies usually exist because people gravitate to one of the two ends of the issue, when the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. I suspect PRSH knew about sunken logs that are reclaimed. Whether he knew they have a moniker that happens to be the same as the term HE coined for a particularly dense wood is unknown. It is entirely possible that he truly did coin the term for his dense wood 25 years ago and didn't contemplate that the industries name for a different wood was exactly the same. I don't think he intentionally tried to mislead anyone, he was just ignorant of what his industry used for a term that he should have known. I can see where PRSH would be reluctant to admit he used the term without knowing a broader definition that his industry used. It would be embarrassing. But I would not think less of him if I knew he was ignorant of an industry term. He makes guitars. He has buyers that get wood for him. Big deal if he is not as up to speed on wood terms as he might be expected to be. It is also true that PRS (the company) should have known that people would take the more broad term and definition when it was used for a limited series of guitars. I think the best thing for PRS to do has already been voiced. Offer to buy back any Sig from a person who is unhappy. I suspect few guitars will be returned. Their usual resellers can then resell any that do come back as "reclaimed sinker mahogany" Sig guitars at used prices (yes the irony was intended). In the end they will keep their fine reputation and will not lose much money in the deal. I got dibs on the first one returned....

themike
05-30-2012, 01:35 PM
It's hard to keep track of all these sinker threads on all the various sites but bottom line is the wood that they did use is still graded as a private stock grade wood.

I would assume that no one would have purchased or kept the guitar if they were unhappy with how it looks or sounds and until this definition of sinker situation arrose, I've heard nothing but absolutely raved reviews of guitars using this wood.

Faded
05-30-2012, 01:45 PM
Yes Jamie, I know. I've read enough BS about this too so I though I'd call the question. People keep writing that Paul Smith knew this made-up marketing term to mean something other than what he has said (calling him a liar) so I'd like them to state the official definition (and of course they'll need to give an authortative source). No takers. Go figure.

See my in-depth post above with cited sources and transcribed dialogue. Go figure.

Daniel
05-31-2012, 02:55 AM
See my in-depth post above with cited sources and transcribed dialogue. Go figure.

I did. Not a definition to be found on any of those sites. I'd been to a couple of those before, notably the RC Tonewoods site. The mandoweb site description (not a definition) is great in that it makes fun of the whole concept of sinker mahogany. "[W]ood that is alleged to have been submerged many scores of fathoms below the surface of the river where, under more pressure than a sophomore with a statistics test tomorrow morning it becomes “as one” with the environment to which it was subject and its molecules compressed like a stack of five (5) IHOP pancakes under a 4-ton steamroller." It gets funnier from there and they manage to work in the 1953 movie Shane and White Castle hamburgers. I read "many scores of fathoms" and was thinking "WTF?" but as I read on I realized they were basically saying, here's the story on this wood but it's a load of crap.

The RC Tonewoods site is notable in that comparing that site to one you didn't list, the Huss & Dalton guitars site, I'm fairly certain RC supplied H&D with their "sinker mahogany" (The H&D wording is straight off the RC site and H&D attributes it to their supplier). The interesting thing about that is the H&D site has photos supposedly showing the trees being recovered from the river in Belize. The photos do not show sunken logs but rather trees that have blown or fallen over into the river and are only partly submerged, partly still on the riverbank. The parts that are under water are just barely so and during the dry season in Belize are probably not at all.

The Hearne Hardwoods site claims to have coined a new phrase, "We are calling it "Sinker Belizean Mahogany"...." and then goes on to repeat the same stuff as RC and H&D about British Colonies and small boats and pulleys which makes a great sales pitch but none of it has anything to do with the actual wood in question. Lumber Jocks spins yet another bit of nonsense. First, they say the locals were given permission to harvest this lumber from the river (so the trees were growing in the river?). Then they go on to make this amazing claim that really isn't a claim but they know some folks will always see what they want to see, "I’ve seen the logging maps from the British that were taking this lumber back to Europe in the 17-1800’s, so you can almost find out where it came from. Who knows how old it was when it was logged." Clever sales pitch. They don't make any actual claim about the provenance of the wood at all but they throw out a bunch of nonsense and let the buyer's mind fill in his own details. The Dog Trot site doesn't mention mahogany at all, only "sinker oak" and "sinker cypress". I found "sinker cypress" really funny. A tree that grows in water in a swamp is considered "sinker" if it falls over?

As for the Wildwood video, paraphrasing is not quoting. We do not know how much time passed between David's conversation with Paul, which happened the last time they "visited Wildwood together", and the time the videos were made, which we know was at least enough time for Wildwood to decide on the specs of those guitars and for the Private Stock team to build all twenty of them. Who else did David talk to about "sinker" wood during those several months? Did he mix any information sources up? That IS A SALES VIDEO so of course he's going to make it sound as cool and authoritative as possible. What better source to attribute the info to than the man himself? I am old enough to know that when two respectable people say different things about the same thing there is usually an innocent mistake in there somewhere and you will never know what it is until those two sit in front of you and explain it.

Now let me get to my point. I kept asking you to give me a definition of sinker mahogany. You never did. It was a trick question or sorts. There is no definition of sinker mahogany. It is a made-up BS term used by salesmen to sell wood. Anyone one can have his or her own definition of it and they are all correct and all wrong. What is it? Wood that got wet? In a river, in a lake, in the ocean, in the rain? Fully submerged or partly? For how long, 30 seconds, 30 years, 300 years? What does it take? Fresh water or salt water? How deep, 1 foot, 100 feet, 1000 feet, many scores of fathoms? (FYI, only ten score of fathoms is 1200 feet and is 50% deeper than the deepest river on the planet, the Congo. A bit beyond small boats and pulleys to recover I think.) Now let me speculate for a second (my speculation is every bit as worthless as anyone else's and this thread has been full of nothing but speculation), maybe Paul Smith told David Grissom exactly, word for word, what David said in that video but then Paul did some research, realized "sinker mahogany" could be anything you wanted it to be so he came up with what he called "sinker" mahogany. Perfectly legitimate.

Now for my final words in this thread. (You're welcome ) Paul Smith could have made a video that said, "All the wood used in these guitar necks came from mahogany trees cut in 1855 that spent 155 years on the bottom of a river, was recovered in 2010 and sold to us." No customer could have ever proven him wrong and that would have made a tidy ending for the story. He didn't say anything like that. Because he didn't try to make any elegant cover up that would have made some un-informed consumers happy, I believe his explanation. I will continue to believe it until someone offers proof, not speculation, not heresay and not outright BS, to the contrary. At that time, should it ever occur, all I will have to say is, "So what? I knew before I bought that sinker wood is just sales BS and doesn't mean anything. I mean, come on, don't tell me some doofus put any stock in that term without checking it out first."

Zilmo
05-31-2012, 03:29 AM
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y34/Zilmo/boom.gif



Oops, my head just blew up.

Faded
05-31-2012, 05:41 AM
As for the Wildwood video, paraphrasing is not quoting.

You're right, David's lying and he made the whole thing up. He must've gotten all that info from his other guitar company owning buddy while discussing specs for his other Sig model...silly me.


Now let me get to my point. I kept asking you to give me a definition of sinker mahogany. You never did. It was a trick question or sorts. There is no definition of sinker mahogany. Now let me speculate for a second (my speculation is every bit as worthless as anyone else's and this thread has been full of nothing but speculation), maybe Paul Smith told David Grissom exactly, word for word, what David said in that video but then Paul did some research, realized "sinker mahogany" could be anything you wanted it to be so he came up with what he called "sinker" mahogany. Perfectly legitimate.


I gave you two definitions both from Paul Reed Smith as he seems to understand the term, two very different definitions. I also gave you the websites to demonstrate a consensus. What is that consensus? "Submerged" or "Reclaimed from water" each site has a slightly different set of circumstances surrounding the wood, but the consensus is there. So while it may be perfectly legitimate to know one commonly held meaning of a term and name something else the same thing it is disingenuous.

11top
05-31-2012, 06:47 AM
Wow. I'm really tired of this. The bottom line is that it doesn't matter where it came from; it matters how good it is. IMO, it's damn good. Can we move on please?

Taller
05-31-2012, 07:29 AM
I like pie.

Faded
05-31-2012, 08:11 AM
I like pie.
Me too, I'm done with this one. Inserting head back into sand...
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx237/ehouston08/11c14158.jpg

cwhenke
05-31-2012, 09:10 AM
Can we move on please?

I asked the Magic 8 Ball, and it said, "Yes, definitely."

Man, I hope that's right...

veinbuster
05-31-2012, 05:55 PM
Wow. I'm really tired of this. The bottom line is that it doesn't matter where it came from; it matters how good it is. IMO, it's damn good. Can we move on please?

Sounds good to me.

]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©
06-01-2012, 11:33 AM
http://prsguitars.com/forum/showthre...MENT-FROM-PAUL (http://prsguitars.com/forum/showthread.php?965-STATEMENT-FROM-PAUL)