Originally Posted by Jester
No, I'm not with you at all. Actually, and I say this with the utmost respect possible, I find several of your blanket statements rather self-serving and boorish, but hopefully that's just my take and wasn't your true intention. More on all of that later.
The idea of some sort of sale/trade section here has already been addressed on numerous occasions. I for one like not having listings, trade offers, and even 'unofficial' ads from dealers here. As has already been pointed out, there are countless places on the web where that content can be found by those who are interested. IMO, this forum is different (read:better) much in the same way that most PRS products themselves are different. If someone wants 'the usual' (for lack of a better term), then it's out there waiting for them. If they want something a bit different, then PRS might be what they're looking for. That includes the PRS forum itself.
Obviously, what constitutes a 'HUGE attraction when choosing a forum to call home' is different for everyone. Personally, if I want to wade through sales pitches then I know where to find them. I don't wish to have them as part of the accepted scenery in yet another setting. PRS isn't a 'normal' guitar and amp maker. By extension, their forum isn't the 'normal' type either. I find that refreshing and unique, and a very pleasant change from most guitar-related sites and forums.
To those who want ads, etc. here, what is the point? Why do you want that feature here? To add to the camaraderie and enjoyment of the PRS community? Or is it primarily to increase your own chances to buy or sell something? No offense intended, but if that's your aim then I think it might be a bit selfish.
I suggest that we all be gracious enough to accept this venue for what it is and how it is, and perhaps seek out other sites that 'achieve critical mass and thrive' in ways more in line with differing sensibilities and expectations as needed. After all, there's no law that says PRS even has to have a forum at all. I don't think it's too much to ask that we take it and enjoy it as it is presented to us (and presented free of charge by the way!).
Now, Jester, to some of your remarks that I found troubling. Who is this ‘we’ to whom you refer? Please refrain from stating what 'we' need. I am more than capable of deciding - and voicing - my own needs. I require and accept NO outside assistance in this area, and I imagine most members here are equally qualified. You focusing on your own needs and desires? Fine. Mine? Please leave them to me.
Also, I visit and/or post on this forum virtually every day, and have done so since its inception. Based on your limited criteria, then that apparently makes me a ‘heavy user’, a ‘guitarholic'. Fine by me. I can live with that label.
However, your generalization is again incorrect, as most generalizations usually are. I don't know anything about you, but I'd be willing to say that it is entirely possible that I was buying, selling, building and playing guitars before you were even born. Yet not once in all of that time did I find it a hinderance not to have (A) the internet, or (B) a forum which allows commercial listings at my disposal. So it's by no means crucial that a forum provide a trade area of some kind. Convenient, yes. Crucial, no.
The last point I will make is a simple one. This forum is owned and controlled by Paul Reed Smith Guitars. It is theirs to run as they see fit. As users, we have the choice of either following the rules and participating within those guidelines, or going elsewhere. The subject of possibly adding a marketplace of some type has already been addressed. And rejected. I for one have no problem with that.
Again, absolutely respectfully to all, Goldtop
Originally Posted by james
I am sincerely flattered and humbled by that. Thank you - and anyone else who may notice - for being interested. Makes my weekend!
I can assure you that the Jester's comments are based upon what he believes will make a better Forum & not "self-serving" in any way. I have known the Jester for many years & he is nothing short of a class act. I also know that he has not sold but a handfull of Guitars in his life. I believe he has some very valid points for creating additional traffic on the site.
Personally, I will readily admit the following .......................... I want my, I want my, I want my B.A.M :biggrin:
I'm going to reply to Goldtop's post above, since I have been an outspoken supporter of a "used/for-sale" section in this forum in the past, and on this thread. So, I'd like to make my opinions known for what they're worth.
Speaking for myself, the desire to have a "used/sale" section was in no way an attempt to increase my capacity for selling. IMO, no forum out there is going to end up seriously competing with eBay for an audience. And, if you REALLY need a forum to sell used gear, there are forums like TGP for the larger more generalized audience...and Vintage Rocker for a more defined niche market.
Speaking strictly for myself...I thought that a "used/sale" section would greatly increase the number of participants in the forum. And, additionally, bring in others who may not have joined otherwise.
If you folks in charge of this great forum can think of other ideas to increase the participating audience...that would be great. But...again..speaking strictly for myself....there was no underlying commercial intent behind the desire to add such a section to this forum. Just a desire to "increase the volume" so to speak.
This is a great forum, BTW. And most appreciated. Hopefully the suggestions are not perceived as criticisms.
I am certain that Jester and Bennett's intentions were for the good of the forum, and not for selfish reasons. Fact is, people enjoy trading, and if you think about it, every physical community in history has been built around a marketplace. In fact, the original meaning of the Latin word "forum" was "marketplace." So their thinking might be that this community would attract more participation with a marketplace as well (please correct me if I'm wrong). More participation is certainly not a bad thing.
On a personal level, a used guitar marketplace isn't something I think this forum needs. I see it more as a marketplace of information and ideas.
But as Hans once famously put it, we all have our shtick.
Mine is to interact with PRS the company, get product info, and share my enthusiasm and ideas about what they make with friends here. Lots of ancillary topics come up that I'm interested in discussing, and I like the vibe here.
I'm mostly a new guitar kind of person, and I frequently check out the new PRS models via the product link at the top of the page. It's also not unusual for my interest in an instrument to be piqued by something I've encountered here recently, or on other forums. The 408 is an example (thanks, Twinfan for getting my interest up!).
PRS' product demos have been a great source of information, and I can think right offhand of three things I needed in the past year for my studio that absolutely were bought as the direct result of seeing and hearing the products demoed by PRS endorsers on the various product pages, and having Paul run through the controls and showing how they interact. Superb sources of info with good audio - audio is an important component for me, as a studio guy, as is hearing a variety of tones from the controls.
I also liked hearing the Nicky Moroch amp demos with backing track. Hugely helpful, and I wish that more demos included this kind of thing in addition to the straight "here's how the controls work" kind of demo.
Wow. I'm surprised that the classified section is an issue. Speaking personally and as someone who has bought and sold on TGP for a decade I don't think other forums will ever achieve the liquidity TGP has. There is already a lot of duplicate posting between here and Vintage Rocker. Aside from the fact that this is a company forum I don't think the classified section would work as well as TGP.
Thanks James and Shawn.
Between your comments and those of markie, I believe that Jester's point was not to be selfish. I don't know any of you other than through this forum or VR, but based on that I can easily believe that everyone in this discussion is coming from a good place. Hopefully the feeling is mutual.
Originally Posted by LSchefman
Personally, I like the forum as it is now. But if a sales/trade section is added someday I'll still come here. I believe most of us would.
Thanks for your reply. I agree with you; this is a great forum. And as I said in another response, I'd come here whether there was a trade section or not, as I think most of us would.
Originally Posted by docbennett
I don't think a swap meet section would do any positive things for this forum. As James said, there are many other places for that. Also, the amount of pure crap that goes on with online forum sales is rediculously time consuming for the mods. Users generally don't see this stuff, it's left to the moderators to sort out and police. If, in a perfect world, people posted honest ads and buyers always honored their commitments it might be different. However, that's not the world we live in so I'm against it here. This forum is like a peaceful little town with great neighbors and a mayor everyone likes. Building a casino here might cause more problems than it would solve IMHO.
If there was ever to be a 'For Sale' section here, I'd like it to be more like an authentication/setup service by the PTC. Totally doesn't work for guitars outside of the US, but maybe a guitar could be sent to the PTC for a check over, authentication, and a setup. I say authentication because of the dodgy Chinese knock offs that are popping up (and will continue to become more convincing), and I would pay a small premium to get something from PRS to say this guitar is real. Setups are of course user preference (string gauge, pickup height, action etc) but I think it would be better than "just been setup by my luthier".
A guitar that has been PTC checked can then be listed as available on the PRSf, no prices, and buyer just inquires by private message, so the policy of no public price discussion is upheld.
Just my 2 cents :)
Certified Used PRS? With the latest tweaks by the PTC?
I like it.
Great idea. Manages to get the company into the mix with a very small "profit center" and allows the used guitar to be "certified". And, gets the guitar listed on this forum which further "certifies it".
Originally Posted by justmund
I love the idea.
Originally Posted by docbennett
The PTC has wonderfully fast turnaround time, and does amazing, detailed, productive work on guitars where warranty or paying customer projects should have, and do have, priority.
And so you want to tie them up verifying and turning around used guitars just to have another place to sell used gear? Are you kidding?
You can buy certified used cars from a Mercedes or BMW dealer. They do not get sent back to the factory. The dealer handles any repairs. That's the way it makes sense.
Maybe this thread should be combined with this other thread... Man this place is dead! as I seem to want to post the same thing in each...