NAD: CAD Custom MDT!

[MA Pete]

New Amp Day, CAD Custom MDT!







Played it for a few minutes, it is very similar to the Sewell in that it has great gain tones, and still maintains those great gain tones at very low volumes, but very different as to where the controls are set to get there. Definitely a significant evolution of the platform! I actually think this has less gain than the Sewell, which is okay, the Sewell has a TON, more than you would need, really.

This amp is also special to me because it is cloned off the one that Eric C, AaeCee and I played with PRSh and Paul Miles in April at Paul's studio, we A/B'ed three and this one was unanimously our favorite, and from what I am told this one (and aristotle's) follows the exact design of our favorite of Paul's that we played, that has been how Eric has been ordering the CAD ones.

The Black Gold Maple looks good with the Paisley, and now all my amps match :



Also have a 4x10 coming in in Paisley and Black Gold, and plan to get a 2nd 2 Channel H for home as well.

Will post more tone reports as I spend more time with it.

I love NAD's, just as much as NGD's!!

[iahawk36]

PETE!!! That is OUTSTANDING!! Congrats man!

[]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©]

I was speaking with Junior about the MDT last month. I'd really like to have an MDT Custom head to go with my 25th and then run an amp switcher or a pedal where I can blend between them (one clean and one with some hair on it).

Congrats, Pete!

[MA Pete]

I was speaking with Junior about the MDT last month. I'd really like to have an MDT Custom head to go with my 25th and then run an amp switcher or a pedal where I can blend between them (one clean and one with some hair on it).

Congrats, Pete!

Sounds like a GREAT idea!

My matching 4x10 came today, check it out!




Wow, there is some SERIOUS Ted action going on in that pic!!


Wall of TONE!!

(Hans - you are top of the Dibs list for the DC 22 - but don't hold your breath, it is KILLER!! )

[LSchefman]

Pete, coupla questions about the 4 x 10 cab:

It wouldn't have occurred to me to pair a 4 x 10 with something like the MDT or HXDA, just because I'm so used to 12 inch speakers. Yet it seems like it'd be really interesting. I'd like to know more about how this matches up with your MDT and how you think it'd match up with the HXDA?

I'm kind of imagining a 4 x 10 like this as midrange and treble happy. That's not a bad thing in a recording context. Right or wrong?

[38Roars]

Pete the 4x10 are outrageous! I have a CAD Dallas 4 x10 Combo built and then ordered an extra cabinet to go with my Two Rock Head...
I dig it so much, I might order another for the Anniversay Head I had modded to HXDA! The Paisley looks FANTASTIC...

[LSchefman]

38Roars, what kinds of tones are you getting with the TR and the 4 x 10?

[MA Pete]

Pete, coupla questions about the 4 x 10 cab:

It wouldn't have occurred to me to pair a 4 x 10 with something like the MDT or HXDA, just because I'm so used to 12 inch speakers. Yet it seems like it'd be really interesting. I'd like to know more about how this matches up with your MDT and how you think it'd match up with the HXDA?

I'm kind of imagining a 4 x 10 like this as midrange and treble happy. That's not a bad thing in a recording context. Right or wrong?

Les:

I'll let you know after I get some time to A/B at proper tone-testing volumes. Maybe I'll get our reviewer (BrianC) to comment as well!

It wasn't intuitive to me either, but PRSh was really fond of the 4x10 when I talked to him about amps and cabs in April. And the MDT sounded GREAT through the 4x10 when we compared amps and cabs. The difference in the Cabs was subtle.

I actually struggle with too much bass in my Guitar Room. It is a fairly small space and because of that I keep the amps close to the wall, and as you can see the 4x12 is in an alcove. I typically have to turn the bass WAY down to prevent it from being to bassy on the 4x12, we'll see on the 4x10 have that is. I have it on my to-do list to check out the Auralex Gramma Amp Risers to see how that works to cut down on the bass...

Another reason I considered the 4x10 was that I found out it was the lightest cab (other than a 1x12), lighter than the two 2x12 versions. I just got one up in Ottawa where I rehearse and gig, with a 2 Channel H, haven't played it yet. I sometimes struggle with a bad back, not only is this one lighter than a 2x12 (both of the closed-back 2x12's are over 50 pounds, the 4x10 is less than 39 pounds), but also it is much thinner so it is less awkward to carry. So for my gigging rig I am going from a 1x12 combo weight 50'ish pounds to a head weighing 30 pounds or plus a cab weighing 39, and certainly a 4x10 is going to have more mojo than the single 12" speaker in the combo!

I haven't gigged that rig yet, but will do so in a couple of weeks, will report back on that as well.

Once I bit the bullet on the 4x10 for the gigging rig, I decided to get one for home too, after talking to a bunch of people about it and hearing very positive feedback.

The Ottawa rig is a little less outrageous in looks - just Black Tolex with "Gold Burst" Maple.

-Pete

[MA Pete]

Pete the 4x10 are outrageous! I have a CAD Dallas 4 x10 Combo built and then ordered an extra cabinet to go with my Two Rock Head...
I dig it so much, I might order another for the Anniversay Head I had modded to HXDA! The Paisley looks FANTASTIC...

Cool! Glad you are digging the 4x10's as well.

Agree the Paisley looks great. I have had a Paisley 4x12 since spring of 2011, always dug that for both tone and for looks, but adding the Black Gold Maple faceplate really looks great!

I know we are supposed to just worry about the tone, but for me my collection also is about the Wall Art, and these awesome looking Paisley Amp rigs look great under my gorgeous guitars!

[LSchefman]

I actually struggle with too much bass in my Guitar Room. It is a fairly small space and because of that I keep the amps close to the wall, and as you can see the 4x12 is in an alcove. I typically have to turn the bass WAY down to prevent it from being to bassy on the 4x12, we'll see on the 4x10 have that is. I have it on my to-do list to check out the Auralex Gramma Amp Risers to see how that works to cut down on the bass...

I think that in a normal sized room, bass with many kinds of cabs gets to be a significant problem, especially with recording! Like you, I'm often turning the bass way down on my amp. And of course, in a small room, the bass waves haven't got very far to travel, and the wavelengths are long, so there's all kinds of stuff bouncing around off the floor, walls and ceiling.

One thing to be aware of - you probably know that having the amp as far away from the walls as possible will reduce the woof in the cabs. This is because of Boundary Reinforcement.

Against a wall, and close to a floor, you have what acousticians call Quarter Space Bass Reinforcement. The bass, being omnidirectional (as opposed to higher frequencies that tend to beam), reflects off both the floor and the back wall, thus artificially reinforcing the bass significantly more than simply putting a cab on the floor further out into the room, where you have only Half Space Reinforcement of the bass. Each boundary adds 3 db or so to the bass. Remember that doubling the power on an amp only produces a 3 db increase in volume, what you're doing is like doubling your low end power putting a cab on the floor, and adding still more power against a wall. Again, because it's omnidirectional at low frequencies, this is the case regardless of whether the cab is open or closed-back.

However, the worst-case scenario for getting too much woofy bass is what you have in the alcove. I'd agree it looks cool to have that space for the amp. But now you're dealing with Eighth Space Bass Reinforcement from EACH of the corners! For a 4 x 12, that's almost a crazy amount of bass boundary reinforcement.

The Gramma works effectively to reduce structure borne sympathetic vibrations, but it will NOT do much about your boundary reinforcement. Its surface is still very close to the floor, and of course, it does nothing about the reflections off back walls and side walls in corners. Remember, the boundary reinforcement is all about where in the room the cab sits, and not about sympathetic vibrations. a couple of inches off the floor is pretty insignificant in terms of bass wavelengths, that are very long in length.

Yes, the Gramma will improve things, but the best thing you can do for your Almighty Tone is pull the cab out of the alcove, and move the amps and cabs significantly out into the room. 2 Meters is the usual rule of thumb. Won't look as cool, but you'll be getting more out of your gear investment. And as you know, having the cab reasonably off the floor (to a point) is better; a lot of guys in the studio world have amp stands made to get them at least a foot off the floor.

If you look at pictures of some of the classic recording sessions over the years, you'll see amps on chairs, stands, and whatever could be corralled. There's a reason for this!

You can always move the amps back against the wall when you're done playing, and besides, they're such good looking amps that they might not look too shabby further away from walls. For my cabs, I made a very good looking oak caster board to make this part easier, as I'd rather sit the cab on a wheeled board than drill into the cabs to install wheels. Of course, the board does theoretically add a slight resonance, so I damp it underneath with Auralex.

In any event, the Gramma will reduce the buzzing from light fixtures, and the transmission of noise to other parts of the house. What it will not do is significantly affect boundary reinforcement of the bass (though it may reduce the transmission of low frequency vibrations to your floor and help in that way).

Another reason I considered the 4x10 was that I found out it was the lightest cab (other than a 1x12), lighter than the two 2x12 versions. I just got one up in Ottawa where I rehearse and gig, with a 2 Channel H, haven't played it yet. I sometimes struggle with a bad back, not only is this one lighter than a 2x12 (both of the closed-back 2x12's are over 50 pounds, the 4x10 is less than 39 pounds), but also it is much thinner so it is less awkward to carry.

Yeah, I was gonna ask about weight. Cool!

[38Roars]

38Roars, what kinds of tones are you getting with the TR and the 4 x 10?

Well previously was using a 2x12 Germino Cab with GH 12s in it, and although it covered the Marshall tones very well I thought it was a little Jangle to my taste. The 4 x 10 carries the bass VERY well but more important to my taste really holds the reverb and sustain for a Big Bluesy Tone... especially with the Artist V or 5708 pickups. Probably more my opinion that sonically correct analysis....but I am very happy with it... You need a Germino Cab?

[MA Pete]

I think that in a normal sized room, bass with many kinds of cabs gets to be a significant problem, especially with recording! Like you, I'm often turning the bass way down on my amp. And of course, in a small room, the bass waves haven't got very far to travel, and the wavelengths are long, so there's all kinds of stuff bouncing around off the floor, walls and ceiling.

One thing to be aware of - you probably know that having the amp as far away from the walls as possible will reduce the woof in the cabs. This is because of Boundary Reinforcement.

Against a wall, and close to a floor, you have what acousticians call Quarter Space Bass Reinforcement. The bass, being omnidirectional (as opposed to higher frequencies that tend to beam), reflects off both the floor and the back wall, thus artificially reinforcing the bass significantly more than simply putting a cab on the floor further out into the room, where you have only Half Space Reinforcement of the bass. Each boundary adds 3 db or so to the bass. Remember that doubling the power on an amp only produces a 3 db increase in volume, what you're doing is like doubling your low end power putting a cab on the floor, and adding still more power against a wall. Again, because it's omnidirectional at low frequencies, this is the case regardless of whether the cab is open or closed-back.

However, the worst-case scenario for getting too much woofy bass is what you have in the alcove. I'd agree it looks cool to have that space for the amp. But now you're dealing with Eighth Space Bass Reinforcement from EACH of the corners! For a 4 x 12, that's almost a crazy amount of bass boundary reinforcement.

The Gramma works effectively to reduce structure borne sympathetic vibrations, but it will NOT do much about your boundary reinforcement. Its surface is still very close to the floor, and of course, it does nothing about the reflections off back walls and side walls in corners. Remember, the boundary reinforcement is all about where in the room the cab sits, and not about sympathetic vibrations. a couple of inches off the floor is pretty insignificant in terms of bass wavelengths, that are very long in length.

Yes, the Gramma will improve things, but the best thing you can do for your Almighty Tone is pull the cab out of the alcove, and move the amps and cabs significantly out into the room. 2 Meters is the usual rule of thumb. Won't look as cool, but you'll be getting more out of your gear investment. And as you know, having the cab reasonably off the floor (to a point) is better; a lot of guys in the studio world have amp stands made to get them at least a foot off the floor.

If you look at pictures of some of the classic recording sessions over the years, you'll see amps on chairs, stands, and whatever could be corralled. There's a reason for this!

You can always move the amps back against the wall when you're done playing, and besides, they're such good looking amps that they might not look too shabby further away from walls. For my cabs, I made a very good looking oak caster board to make this part easier, as I'd rather sit the cab on a wheeled board than drill into the cabs to install wheels. Of course, the board does theoretically add a slight resonance, so I damp it underneath with Auralex.

In any event, the Gramma will reduce the buzzing from light fixtures, and the transmission of noise to other parts of the house. What it will not do is significantly affect boundary reinforcement of the bass (though it may reduce the transmission of low frequency vibrations to your floor and help in that way).

Les:

Thanks for the great input!

I actually just recently put 2 and 2 together about the alcove and the bass issue, when A/B/C'ing the MDT, the Sewell and the Blistertone last week. Dialing them in, I was like "okay, this bass issue is worse than I thought, must be the alcove".

Looks like Brian, Alan and I will need to experiment with that next amp session, moving the cabs out from the wall and the alcoves and comparing the tones. (I was going to say "pulling them out and comparing", but that didn't sound right! )

Longer-term I plan to finish the rest of the basement and get the amps out into a larger area. When I do that I will work to get them further from the walls, and maybe on casters as you suggest (BrianC had also suggested that, his Marshall 4x12 has casters, it is quite helpful in moving it around, he has even brought it over here a few times to compare the cabs).

-Pete

[Buildermike]

" bass issue is worse than I thought, must be the alcove."

Pete,

Install bar with a kegerator in the alcove, a much better use of the space

[LSchefman]

Well previously was using a 2x12 Germino Cab with GH 12s in it, and although it covered the Marshall tones very well I thought it was a little Jangle to my taste. The 4 x 10 carries the bass VERY well but more important to my taste really holds the reverb and sustain for a Big Bluesy Tone... especially with the Artist V or 5708 pickups. Probably more my opinion that sonically correct analysis....but I am very happy with it... You need a Germino Cab?

Hmmm....as you may know, my #1 also is an Artist V. So if you like the 4 x 10 better for bluesy tones, which I also tend to lean toward, it's something I definitely need to try out. This info is truly helpful!

[LSchefman]

I actually just recently put 2 and 2 together about the alcove and the bass issue, when A/B/C'ing the MDT, the Sewell and the Blistertone last week. Dialing them in, I was like "okay, this bass issue is worse than I thought, must be the alcove".

Looks like Brian, Alan and I will need to experiment with that next amp session, moving the cabs out from the wall and the alcoves and comparing the tones. (I was going to say "pulling them out and comparing", but that didn't sound right! )

Longer-term I plan to finish the rest of the basement and get the amps out into a larger area. When I do that I will work to get them further from the walls, and maybe on casters as you suggest (BrianC had also suggested that, his Marshall 4x12 has casters, it is quite helpful in moving it around, he has even brought it over here a few times to compare the cabs).

-Pete

Hey Pete, here's some stuff to consider until you build out the rest of your space:

Concrete floors are going to reflect low frequencies, but that's basements for ya, and not much you can do about that, except use carpet to deaden things a little bit (it won't absorb LF energy though). Some low frequency energy will pass through sheetrock walls (though some will reflect back) because they're thin enough to act as membranes as far as LF audio is concerned. However, if the sheetrock is attached to studs along the concrete wall, you've got the same problem as with the floor. So if you have to have cabs near walls, you don't want them near the concrete outside walls of a basement, you're better off having them near the interior walls where some of the energy will pass through.

I like using bass traps. They can be built cheaply, or bought for not too much of an investment. The best ones will also absorb some of the higher frequency room reflections, which will smooth out frequency response and help avoid certain phase and room cancellations. Lots of people like the ones that attach to walls, but in a room with amps I actually prefer the ones that you can move where you need them. Not only can they act to absorb bass, but putting a few around an amp will absorb some of the sound pressure level, and actually allow you to play with a bit more gain without causing an earthquake in the rest of the house, provided that you also isolate the amp from the structure with something like a Gramma type thing. I've been using ASC Tube Traps for this purpose http://www.tubetrap.com/tubetrap-setup.htm, but I actually prefer the ones you can use as gobos like the Primacoustic go-traps or Taytrix' Stackit gobos: http://www.taytrix.com/StackIt_Gobosx.html

The beauty of casters is that you can move the amps back against the wall when you're done with them without any fuss.

So...yeah, fun stuff.

[MA Pete]

Pete,

Install bar with a kegerator in the alcove, a much better use of the space

I am more of a wine kind of guy, maybe a bar with a wine rack?

[MA Pete]

Hey Pete, here's some stuff to consider until you build out the rest of your space:

Concrete floors are going to reflect low frequencies, but that's basements for ya, and not much you can do about that, except use carpet to deaden things a little bit (it won't absorb LF energy though). Some low frequency energy will pass through sheetrock walls (though some will reflect back) because they're thin enough to act as membranes as far as LF audio is concerned. However, if the sheetrock is attached to studs along the concrete wall, you've got the same problem as with the floor. So if you have to have cabs near walls, you don't want them near the concrete outside walls of a basement, you're better off having them near the interior walls where some of the energy will pass through.

I like using bass traps. They can be built cheaply, or bought for not too much of an investment. The best ones will also absorb some of the higher frequency room reflections, which will smooth out frequency response and help avoid certain phase and room cancellations. Lots of people like the ones that attach to walls, but in a room with amps I actually prefer the ones that you can move where you need them. Not only can they act to absorb bass, but putting a few around an amp will absorb some of the sound pressure level, and actually allow you to play with a bit more gain without causing an earthquake in the rest of the house, provided that you also isolate the amp from the structure with something like a Gramma type thing. I've been using ASC Tube Traps for this purpose http://www.tubetrap.com/tubetrap-setup.htm, but I actually prefer the ones you can use as gobos like the Primacoustic go-traps or Taytrix' Stackit gobos: http://www.taytrix.com/StackIt_Gobosx.html

The beauty of casters is that you can move the amps back against the wall when you're done with them without any fuss.

So...yeah, fun stuff.

Interesting, thanks for the additional info!

There is indeed concrete behind the lower half of the walls in that room. That alcove is like a concrete sandwich!

Oddly enough, I spoke to Brian today and we discussed this thread, apparently Brian and Alan think my 4x12 sounds better than theirs, and they were wondering if the alcove was making it sound BETTER, a discussion they had two weeks ago.

Weird!

[LSchefman]

Interesting, thanks for the additional info!

There is indeed concrete behind the lower half of the walls in that room. That alcove is like a concrete sandwich!

Oddly enough, I spoke to Brian today and we discussed this thread, apparently Brian and Alan think my 4x12 sounds better than theirs, and they were wondering if the alcove was making it sound BETTER, a discussion they had two weeks ago.

Weird!

Well, ya know, it may indeed just be a better sounding cab! Or that it does sound good there. But since you feel it has too much bass, I'm going with the "better sounding cab" theory.

[yankeebulldog]

To add to this discussion, would adding casters help with the issue, but reducing the bass, even just slightly? I've considered doing that to my 4x12 although I rarely plan on actually moving it around. My room is about 1/3rd the side of Pete's so obviously I don't have the option of moving it out from the walls. I have amp stands for my smaller combos and have always preferred the sound of them off the floor and angled back a little.

[sergiodeblanc]

I am more of a wine kind of guy, maybe a bar with a wine rack?

Well now I know what to bring if I ever need to get you tipsy enough to allow me to touch the "Only blue guitar cool enough to be seen with".

As Les has already mentioned, pulling the cab out of the alcove and decoupling it from the floor would be the best way to make a comparison. Used hockey pucks from your local "Play it again Sports" are a cheap and effective solution for cutting down transmission.