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Thread: My Journey: The Caretaker vs The Owner

  1. #41
    chief Shawn@PRS's Avatar
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    Do you think they're having this same conversation on the "Hondo Guitar Forum"?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by ]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! © View Post
    Consider, then, the guitar owner who loves his guitar, cares for it, and cringes when it gets a ding. He NEVER forgets where he was, what he was doing, maybe even the song being played when that ding occurred BECAUSE of his love for the guitar. How does that guitar not become a diary?
    I have a '65 SG Special with plenty of little dings. But to be truthful, though I put most of them there, I don't remember how a single one got there.

    I remember the gigs, though. Some in a general way, at this point. Others very specifically.

    I wish I'd made recordings of live gigs over the years, taken pics and video. That would be a more moving diary, at least for me, than looking at guitar dings.

    Quote Originally Posted by ]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! © View Post
    I still struggle to understand why anyone thinks I'm suggesting that I want to be casual about damaging my guitars.
    It's a matter of folks unintentionally misreading what you mean by the "pile of sticks" definition, etc., as I did.

    I get that what you're saying is that you want to be less obsessive about your guitars' condition, and enjoy them more by using them without fear of damage.

    I grok that your quest for "ownership" isn't about causing damage, but instead it's about controlling your own impulse to keep the guitars safe from damage.

    Ultimately, this is why I believe it's not truly relevant to talk about "owners" and "caretakers," since those terms really don't have useful application.

    There are owners who play their instruments, whose interests in keeping the guitars shiny varies as a matter of individual preference.

    And there are owners who don't play them, for a variety of reasons, including fear of damage.

    Moreover, there are probably some owners who keep some guitars safe in their collections, and who play others without fear of damage..

    Ultimately we're all individuals, doing things in our own individual ways. I'm not convinced it's useful to create what I see as somewhat arbitrary distinctions, but if it helps you to overcome your own reluctance to do what you want with your stuff, I say more power to ya.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn@PRS View Post
    Do you think they're having this same conversation on the "Hondo Guitar Forum"?
    I just saw that there is one! But it doesn't seem to be working.
    Last edited by LSchefman; 10-10-2012 at 01:03 PM.

  3. #43
    Recovering Bass Player ]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSchefman View Post
    I have a '65 SG Special with plenty of little dings. But to be truthful, though I put most of them there, I don't remember how a single one got there.
    You're a lucky man. I've often thought that the loss of some long-term memory would do me some good.
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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by ]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! © View Post
    You're a lucky man. I've often thought that the loss of some long-term memory would do me some good.
    47 years is a long time to remember a ding.

  5. #45
    A♥ hoards guitars ♥A rugerpc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! © View Post
    Concur. That was never an assertion.

    Consider, then, the guitar owner who loves his guitar, cares for it, and cringes when it gets a ding. He NEVER forgets where he was, what he was doing, maybe even the song being played when that ding occurred BECAUSE of his love for the guitar. How does that guitar not become a diary?
    I don't have a problem with your diary notion. If that is what floats your boat and makes you happy, the inevitable dents and dings from use need not be repaired.

    I don't have that desire, though. I have the memories in my head and they are no less real because they are not physically represented as a mar on a thing of beauty. I prefer photography, video, audio recordings, letters and cards to dents and dings.

    Quote Originally Posted by ]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! © View Post
    I still struggle to understand why anyone thinks I'm suggesting that I want to be casual about damaging my guitars.
    Maybe it is because of this part of your original text:


    Quote Originally Posted by ]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! © View Post
    An Owner, in the context of this discussion, is not afraid to play, modify, or scratch/dent the guitar. An Owner is prepared to consume the value of each guitar in his/her lifetime -- leaving a worthless pile of sticks on his departure.
    Yes, I saw your explanation that 'worthless pile of sticks' was just an embellishment to make our point. But the notion of consuming the value of each guitar in his/her lifetime is still part of your premise unless I'm reading that wrong.

    I'm not accomplished as a guitar player. Most of the instruments I own some would argue that I don't deserve because I cannot play them to their sonic abilities. I own them because I can afford them.

    But that doesn't mean that I don't appreciate them. As I have stated many times on this forum, I take guitar lessons. I want to be able to take advantage of these beautiful instruments in the same way that I can make my drums sing. But my drumming journey is over 45 years in length and my guitar journey only beginning.

    My plans for my guitars is to get to the point where I'm good enough that it makes sense for me to choose one over another for this or that song, to be able to know that I need to make pup changes, to know that I need a standard for a tone I'm seeking instead of a maple top....

    But, I'm confident that I can eventually do all of these things without 'consuming' the instruments I own.
    Thbbbbbt...
    Check it out: Phillybri used to have a band: Resonance, but he's soooo missingpieces over them now!
    Lexicon ¡sɹǝqɯǝɯ uɐıןɐɹʇsnɐ oןןǝɥ

  6. #46
    Cream Crackered Mikegarveyblues's Avatar
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    I guess it's just finding that middle ground...

    Treating the instruments with respect and looking after them as best as possible but not being so worried about them that they remain hidden away in cases.
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  7. #47
    Recovering Bass Player ]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugerpc View Post
    I'm confident that I can eventually do all of these things without 'consuming' the instruments I own.
    With 24 PRS guitars (and one on order), I am too. This is a philosophical thing, not a literal thing. Being "prepared to consume" the full value of my guitars in my own lifetime is a mindset.

    Brian May has been playing and touring with the same guitar for decades; the one he made with his father.
    One Life

  8. #48
    A♥ hoards guitars ♥A rugerpc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! © View Post
    With 24 PRS guitars (and one on order), I am too. This is a philosophical thing, not a literal thing. Being "prepared to consume" the full value of my guitars in my own lifetime is a mindset.

    Brian May has been playing and touring with the same guitar for decades; the one he made with his father.
    I'm with ya, bro. And I am honestly not trying to take any shots at you. I think we want the same journey with just different momentos.

    My 1970 Ludwig acoustic drum set has been played and played. The Paiste cymbols and almost all of the drums and hardware show years and years of use, but the set overall is as beautiful as when it was new.

    Now, if someone has a magic trick for speeding up my left hand when fretting from cord to cord or during a run, I need to know about that one. Until then, it's back to practicing in the new studio...
    Thbbbbbt...
    Check it out: Phillybri used to have a band: Resonance, but he's soooo missingpieces over them now!
    Lexicon ¡sɹǝqɯǝɯ uɐıןɐɹʇsnɐ oןןǝɥ

  9. #49
    Angry Southern Gentleman Hopeful Sinner's Avatar
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    My goodness we can be a pretentious bunch up in here.. All the arguments "opposed" to Hans terms come from, in the context of this thread, Caretakers. And they seem to take the definition of Caretaker as an insult they must defend. I haven't noticed one Owner in here pleading their case yet. How bizarre would it be if Frankie were trying to defend the shape Casper is in? Exactly, it would be insane! That guitar earned every dent, ding, smudge, smear and rusty piece of metal and there is nothing wrong with that. There is also nothing wrong with having a 25 year old mint condition museum piece that looks like it just rolled off the line. Anyway, it is entertaining as all get out to me so please, carry on...

  10. #50
    A♥ hoards guitars ♥A rugerpc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopeful Sinner View Post
    pretentious
    uncool
    Thbbbbbt...
    Check it out: Phillybri used to have a band: Resonance, but he's soooo missingpieces over them now!
    Lexicon ¡sɹǝqɯǝɯ uɐıןɐɹʇsnɐ oןןǝɥ

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by ]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! © View Post
    Concur. That was never an assertion.

    Consider, then, the guitar owner who loves his guitar, cares for it, and cringes when it gets a ding. He NEVER forgets where he was, what he was doing, maybe even the song being played when that ding occurred BECAUSE of his love for the guitar. How does that guitar not become a diary?

    I still struggle to understand why anyone thinks I'm suggesting that I want to be casual about damaging my guitars.
    It wasn't YOU Hans....it was the responses that some other members gave to the original BaM thread "Owner vs. Caretaker". Some very bizarre responses...including one that went something like this:

    "As soon as I get a new guitar, I never fail to put a dent in it so that I know that I OWN it".

    and many variations on that theme...but one reply that was almost word for word what I quoted above....and it made me nauseous to read it.

    I think you got painted with the same broad brush due to the fact that it was your thread and that you got many responses that were not only blase about getting the guitar damaged....but several that made it clear that the owner purposefully and intentionally damaged it to "claim ownership" or some other form of bullcrap.

    It came off as an overly macho "I don't give a damn attitude"....and, surprisingly....IIRC, the most intentional reply with regard to "purposeful damage" was not from some "Macho shredder" but rather from a very respected member of the opposite sex who was an occasional contributor to the old forum. It was surprising and very disappointing to read. Intentional damage to claim "ownership"??? I was appalled.

    I think that once someone read about the "intentional damage" it somehow got transferred onto you, the OP. However, I do believe this thread clarifies the concept and helps to dispel the concept that "intentional damage" is a good thing.

    BTW...you are absolutely correct in your assumption earlier...as a "collector/owner" I can recall each tiny ding and dent that I have put into my guitar and remember the occasion. Any damage does represent a visual memory and diary of the event in question.

    For example....here is my HML #20...pristine....









    except for this....and I can recall exactly how it happened, and how I cursed myself for being so careless! If it was a PRS, it would have already been shipped to PTC, and I have considered more than once contacting Jack Pimental to find out how involved a repair would be. But, that is just my craziness. I understand that the guitar is still great, and I enjoy playing it....except when I look at that dent I put in it.


    Last edited by docbennett; 10-10-2012 at 02:30 PM.

  12. #52
    Recovering Bass Player ]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©'s Avatar
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    I spent some time (at lunch) discussing this thread with a friend and confidant. He offered some perspectives that I had not considered; perspectives that I hope surface on their own.

    It really is quite interesting to me how the discussion has unfolded - especially since this is the 2nd time around for me and many of my BaM brothers. A lot of people have a great deal of passion tied to this subject. That, in my mind, is a good thing.

    For the record, I'm not upset at any of the responses. I do appreciate the reassurances but, unlike some folks who are easily rattled and fly off the handle with the ban button, I'm pretty good at taking tough discussions head-on; even looking in the mirror from time to time. Sure, I was taken aback by the way some of my words were interpreted by I think we've moved past that. I clarified where I thought I needed to and we seem to be moving forward.

    PLEASE DON"T STARTING TAKING JABS AT EACH OTHER. There is something meaningful to be had through these discussions but we lose it all if we lose our temper.

    I guess the only thing I'm really fearful of is someone jumping into this discussion without reading all of the posts, in context. But I would never stifle the passionate responses - so long as we observe the forum rules. We need honesty. Without it, we'll never get to the heart of anything worthwhile. The Truth must stand. It must. But take care to differentiate between my reality and your own. My truth may be very different from yours and there is no judgement regarding the delta between them.

    As I said, I do appreciate every post in this thread. Yes, even post #29. If I can't laugh at myself then I have much bigger problems than my silly relationship with guitars..
    Last edited by ]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! ©; 10-10-2012 at 03:22 PM.
    One Life

  13. #53
    Senior Member Dirty Bob's Avatar
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    Look...I will say that I definitely play my guitars differently depending upon my current state of vigilence for the particular instrument I am playing...in extreme cases it has lead to mental hand cuffs in terms of creative output if you will...at the same point in time I have experienced that same mental block playing an instrument I have already dinged up...

    sometimes I want a clean tone...sometimes I want distorted...sometimes I want to hear power amp distortion...sometimes preamp...some days I like red...some days I like blue....some days vintage yellow...or a metal...22 frets...or 24...humbuckers, single coils or P90's....some days I want to play a pristine guitar...others one of my road warriors...you get the point.

    I personally want to be in a place that I can make great music on a particular instrument and then hopefully pass that exact guitar to my sons someday so that they can have a similar experience on that very same instrument. (with my luck they will take up the drums instead!!!!)...If it means me beating the snot out of a guitar (this doesnt mean putting it on the floor standing on it and trying to yank the trem bar out of the guitar)...and then me sending it back to the PTC to be babied well then fine!

    Somebody said it best above that it is a very personal issue...and I believe PRS has taken amazing steps to capitalize on this very point with the PTC...take advantage of it or don't!

    My Grandmother used to say "we are all like snowflakes!"

    Do what makes you happy!
    Last edited by Dirty Bob; 10-10-2012 at 04:05 PM.
    -Bob

  14. #54
    A♥ hoards guitars ♥A rugerpc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyMoonsRJT View Post
    Look...personally I will say that I definitely play my guitars differently depending upon my current state of vigilence for the particular instrument I am playing...in extreme cases it has lead to mental hand cuffs in terms of creative output if you will...at the same point in time I have experienced that same mental block playing an instrument I have already dinged up...
    I tend to play all of my guitars rather tentatively - it is a product of being a beginner. I just don't have the confidence yet to play loudly or aggressively. I spend all my time handcuffed...

    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyMoonsRJT View Post
    I personally want to be in a place that I can make great music on a particular instrument and then hopefully pass that exact guitar to my sons someday so that they can have a similar experience on that very same instrument. (with my luck they will take up the drums instead!!!!)
    If they want drums, I'll have at least 2 sets that are still musical and worth owning to choose from when I can no longer swing a stick....

    And I have thought a bit more about what Hans is talking about when he says he wants to not be afraid to play or modify his guitars.

    I mentioned my 1970 Ludwig acoustic set. I was in high school. I added lights to the inside of all the drums except the snare that I could control with foot pedals. I drilled holes in one of my crash cymbals and added loose rivets for a 'sizzler.' Over the years, I alternately painted and polished other cymbals. I painted drum heads. I tuned them to wacky intervals. I added drums I got here and there with mounts I made myself. I used tiny sticks, big sticks and nylon and metal tipped sticks. I went through a phase where I played so aggressively that I had to wire the drum stands together to keep things from wandering off while I played.

    But I never, not once, damaged anything just to damage it or make it look 'used' or 'relic' or 'mine.'

    So, Hans, I get it. What I have done with my drums, you are looking to do with your guitars.

    I'm not there with my guitars yet, but, as I said, that journey is just beginning.
    Thbbbbbt...
    Check it out: Phillybri used to have a band: Resonance, but he's soooo missingpieces over them now!
    Lexicon ¡sɹǝqɯǝɯ uɐıןɐɹʇsnɐ oןןǝɥ

  15. #55
    Angry Southern Gentleman Hopeful Sinner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugerpc View Post
    uncool
    Really? That's the line?

  16. #56
    A♥ hoards guitars ♥A rugerpc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopeful Sinner View Post
    Really? That's the line?
    pre·ten·tious/priˈtenCHəs/
    Adjective:
    Attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.

    If that's how you view the posts in this thread, brother, then yes - uncool.
    Thbbbbbt...
    Check it out: Phillybri used to have a band: Resonance, but he's soooo missingpieces over them now!
    Lexicon ¡sɹǝqɯǝɯ uɐıןɐɹʇsnɐ oןןǝɥ

  17. #57
    Angry Southern Gentleman Hopeful Sinner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugerpc View Post
    pre·ten·tious/priˈtenCHəs/
    Adjective:
    Attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.

    If that's how you view the posts in this thread, brother, then yes - uncool.
    Gah, lighten up my man! I was taking a jab at ALL of us.. We aren't talking about whatever was in Marcellus Wallace's suitcase here, just guitars.. Darn fine guitars, but still, just guitars. And I stand by my position, the only ruffled feathers seem to be the guys that took "caretaking" as an insult. Which, by the way, has never been stated, nor implied as far as I can tell.

  18. #58
    Senior Member Dirty Bob's Avatar
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    According to my wife's reasoning...we are all out of our minds. I'm just glad she puts up with me and my obsession!
    -Bob

  19. #59
    Senior Member sergiodeblanc's Avatar
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    This is what my guitar looks like after playing it professionally for (almost) every day for nineteen years.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    The first cut is the deepest.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    The nitro fell off the neck by playing it.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    The Lion of Judah on the TRC has kept it safe from theft, a trailer flipping end over end in the mountains of Colorado in a snow storm, being "lost" by United Airlines for three days, and an angry girlfriend.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    It has some friends, but they are all jealous because it is the only one that goes everywhere.
    [IMG][/IMG]

    I "own" and "take care" of my tools, and just like everybody else here who spends a good portion of their energy on this website, I am a "Fetishist".

    The term "Caretaker" infers that you may not have a complete relationship with your instrument, you do not play professionally, you do not take it out of your home, you have little intent to keep it, you have more money than talent, and/or you do not play it passionately... which could be true.

    The term "Owner" implies that you are too busy making music to care about a ding or dent, you are a badass player with no use for a tone knob, you lost your hangtag and never filled out your warranty card twenty years ago because you are never selling, chicks dig you, and you have the respect of non-PRS players because you jacked up that expensive "furniture" guitar so that makes you a real player and not a lawyer, doctor, or engineer... which may also be true.

    The problem I have is that one option makes you defensive and feel like crap, while the other gives you a sense of superiority, I think it's pretty obvious which of the two choices is cooler.

    I am truly happy for Hans that he is ready to settle down with "the one" after being left feeling unfulfilled and/or guilty by his misogynistic guitar trading. There are few things that feel better than knowing your instrument so familiarly that you don't have to "think" about where your pickup selector is placed, or where you are on the neck that you can just "feel" it instead. It gets you closer to the point of creation without as many obstacles in your way, and makes playing the guitar and finding your tone much easier. The only downside is that it could make you dependant on that particular instrument.

    I often wonder how anybody can make a decision of a particular instruments value or potential within a few months time if you liked it enough at the store to plunk down your money, why would it no longer "do it" for you by the time the next and newest model came out? Why would you sell a guitar that you know is great only to replace it with the unknown?, if it is for the initial pleasure of buying a new material possession or a change in fashion I can understand to a degree (I clearly stated I am a fetishist), but give the one you're with a chance to prove its worth to you and let it see the world and share in your experiences of doing the one thing that all guitar players must do.

    Play on.



    I don't know

  20. #60
    Senior Member Dirty Bob's Avatar
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    Slightly off topic...

    for clarification purposes once and for all...and I have this issue with many on TGP in relation to PRS.

    Working your ass off and having the means to purchase fine instruments does not mean one does not have talent.

    -Bob

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