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Thread: difference between TAB and Treble clef

  1. #21
    deus ex machina
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugerpc View Post
    The third note is an E - a very specific E - the E just above middle C on the piano. On a guitar in standard tuning, that E can be sounded by playing the 4th string at the second fret as shown in the tab.

    Actually, the information given on the linked page is wrong. Middle C on a piano has a frequency of approximately 262 Hertz. Low E on a guitar has a frequency of approximately 82 Hertz. The E note one octave above it that resides on the second fret of the D string is approximately 163 Hertz. Middle C on a guitar actually resides on the 20th fret of the low E string, 15th fret of the A string, 10th fret of the D string, 5th fret of the G string, and the 1st fret of the B string. 

 The E on the first line of standard notation is actually the same frequency as the open high E string.

    
One can now clearly see why tablature is the preferred notation for guitar. We like to think of tab as being this hip thing that we developed for guitar. However, its use dates back to the Middle Ages. As Mikegarveyblues mentioned, one of tab's biggest weaknesses is that it does not encode timing. 






  2. #22
    A♥ hoards guitars A♥ rugerpc's Avatar
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    Em7 is correct. I misled.

    The treble clef is used for guitar for convenience and is a compromise. It allows simultaneous display of notes for singing and guitar notes for playing on the same staff.

    Have a look here for how the open strings of guitar relate to the piano.

    But, as Em7 begins to point out, there is a problem. Middle C on the treble clef is not middle C when played on guitar.

    This is due to the voicing of the guitar - when playing the notes as shown on sheet music, the notes on the guitar actually sound an octave lower. That is, the C on the first ledger line below the staff is not middle C (C4 at approx 262 Hz) but is in reality the C an octave lower, C3 at approx 131 Hz. True Middle C is on the 20th fret of the low E string, 15th fret of the A string, 10th fret of the D string, 5th fret of the G string, and the 1st fret of the B string as Em7 writes. But because of the notation octave shift in sheet music for guitar, we actually play the C on the third fret of the A string when we see middle C on guitar sheet music.

    Damn confusing isn't it?

    The low E string is written as the space below the third ledger line below the staff in sheet music, but in actual grand staff notation it is on the first ledger line below the bass clef. If it were to be written using the treble clef and ledger lines it would be on the 7th ledger line below the staff. In fact, most of the notes on the lowest 3 strings are actually in the bass clef, and thus would require ledger lines below the treble clef to accurately represent.

    To be completely accurate, guitar music should be written using the grand staff or the real number of ledger lines below the treble clef. But since that would take over twice as much room in the case of the grand staff and a crazy, unreadable amount of lower ledger lines for the treble clef alone, we have the compromise notation.

    Guitar is not the only instrument with compromises in notation. Many instruments who's natural ranges fall outside of (or between) the grand staff are routinely written using alternate clefs.

    Have a look at these:
    http://musicnotation.org/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clef
    Last edited by rugerpc; 11-03-2012 at 06:01 PM.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member captdg's Avatar
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    Okay...Time Signatures are very imporant when sight reading..When I first started to play I wanted to learn the solo on "Two Tickets to Paradise" which I believe the time signature changes from 3/4 to 4/4 to like..any way it wasnt a Rush tune that the time sig goes to cut time and 12/8 and all that. But nevermind that I could find many notes for the solo and the "Timbre" was not right..Ill keep re-reading the above posts..I have to learn things by doing them..man..Thanks fellas!



    Lots of intellect here.on this board.. I learned calculus and physical chemisty mainly by gettin foreign students dates with heavy co-eds.Didnt have money to pay a tutor.......... I am implying nothing..HA!
    Last edited by captdg; 11-04-2012 at 01:34 PM.

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  5. #25
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    okay.. what is the difference " B" string second fret and "d " string 11th fret. I can tell the difference. but its the same note, right?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by captdg View Post
    okay.. what is the difference " B" string second fret and "d " string 11th fret. I can tell the difference. but its the same note, right?
    That would be the B string 2nd fret and D string 10th fret for the same note. As Em7 pointed out - they are both "Middle C" (C4).

    They are the same pitch but have different musical timbres.

    On guitar sheet music it would be the C that is the third space up in the staff on the treble clef. On piano sheet music it would be the C on the first ledger line below the staff.
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  7. #27
    Senior Member captdg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugerpc View Post
    That would be the B string 2nd fret and D string 10th fret for the same note. As Em7 pointed out - they are both "Middle C" (C4).

    They are the same pitch but have different musical timbres.

    On guitar sheet music it would be the C that is the third space up in the staff on the treble clef. On piano sheet music it would be the C on the first ledger line below the staff.
    Okay , Ruger, is there a program or app that I can put in a solo and it will put me on the fretboard exactly where I wanna be? string bending and all? I know it takes the fun outta it but im 49! hey thanks for the help

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by captdg View Post
    Okay , Ruger, is there a program or app that I can put in a solo and it will put me on the fretboard exactly where I wanna be? string bending and all? I know it takes the fun outta it but im 49! hey thanks for the help
    Most of the published sheet music that includes TAB for Rock and Pop music will put you in the right spot on the fretboard.
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  9. #29
    Still a Junior Member Albrecht Smuten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegarveyblues View Post
    If it works then that's all that matters!

    Not found myself in a situation where i've had to write out standard notation for anyone - thankfully! - but i've done a version of tab where i've had to write the duration of the note under the number on the tab line. Kind of worked.
    Few years ago I had to write down some stuff for a violin player in standard notation and it was a nightmare (and I screwed it up of course). My table notation is mainly used as a guideline for bass (root notes and their timing, rest is up to the player).
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  10. #30
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    Tab is for guitar players. The treble clef is for musicians.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippietim View Post
    Tab is for guitar players. The treble clef is for musicians.

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  12. #32
    Senior Member captdg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippietim View Post
    Tab is for guitar players. The treble clef is for musicians.

    Now ..I unnerstand.. Heh!

  13. #33
    Cream Crackered Mikegarveyblues's Avatar
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    Yes, but standard notation only has 5 lines. TAB has six lines which is one louder. You messing around with only 5 lines on a stave where do you go?
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  14. #34
    Senior Member captdg's Avatar
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    But cant one add addional lines as needed even in treble clef? like for use on octaves? What am I missing here?

  15. #35
    Cream Crackered Mikegarveyblues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captdg View Post
    But cant one add addional lines as needed even in treble clef? like for use on octaves? What am I missing here?
    Lines are added all the time, though it's usually just for the notes that need it. Called Ledger lines. Problem with just having a load of lines to encompass all the ranges is that it takes up a lot of room and gets more complex. I've seen 8va or 8vb (?) written in standard notation which is an indication to play an ocatve below the written pitch.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by captdg View Post
    But cant one add addional lines as needed even in treble clef? like for use on octaves? What am I missing here?
    You add ledger lines above and below the staff. You can think of them as extensions of the original staff.
    If they get too out of hand, then the 8va (octave higher) type symbols are used.

    Tab is a weak compromise to notation, no other musicians except guitar and bass players can understand it.

    You decide where to play the notes. If it's difficult or doesn't sound right, play it somewhere else.
    That is one of the unique aspects of stringed instruments, the ability to play the same note in multiple locations.
    I can do that with my sax also, but only certain notes have multiple fingerings.

    As far as the fingering on classical music, that is just editors markings/suggestions. Whoever transcribed the piece is suggesting the fingerings.
    When playing, I find it easier to ignore these fingerings.
    I will look at them if I have difficulty with a passage or feel that I am not playing smoothly .

  17. #37
    Name Manglin' Putz alantig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegarveyblues View Post
    Yes, but standard notation only has 5 lines. TAB has six lines which is one louder. You messing around with only 5 lines on a stave where do you go?
    Keef tabs only have five lines.

    But Dave Weiner tabs have seven lines, which is even one more louder!
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  18. #38
    Still a Junior Member Albrecht Smuten's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alantig View Post
    But Dave Weiner tabs have seven lines, which is even one more louder!
    I was gonna write something like that Tosin Abbasi probably has 8 lines
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  19. #39
    Cream Crackered Mikegarveyblues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alantig View Post
    Keef tabs only have five lines.

    But Dave Weiner tabs have seven lines, which is even one more louder!
    This is a good point and one I hadn't considered.

    Some of the best riffs known to man may only need two or three... I'm gonna have to work on this theory!

    In all seriousness to the OP...

    Most sheet music you buy for guitar will be a mixture of TAB and standard notation. As you've seen from all the responses there are clear differences between the two types of notation, but when it comes to guitar, both have their pros and cons.

    Plenty of well known guitarists have got by without knowing either but that doesn'r mean they haven't devised some way to communicate their ideas.
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  20. #40
    Senior Member captdg's Avatar
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    Guess ill need to start with a lute and work my way from there.

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