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Thread: Another School Shooting

  1. #21
    Warped frustrated old man John Scrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AP515 View Post
    Not likely since guns are not allowed, for anyone to defend themselves, on school grounds. If every teacher, administrator and janitor there (who wanted to) was packing, there may have been a different outcome. My heart goes out to those affected.
    A somewhat "risky" train of thought when wrapped up in the music industry - but one which I happen to agree with 100%.

    "Gun Free Zone" is a fantasy. And in countries where guns aren't the problem, something else always is (Just yesterday in China - AGAIN, a maniac went through an elementary school slashing children with a knife).
    Last edited by John Scrip; 12-14-2012 at 08:55 PM.
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  2. #22
    Cream Crackered Mikegarveyblues's Avatar
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    I hope we never have to go down the path where teachers and other school workers carry loaded guns. That thought chills me.

    Sadly, upping security at schools, colleges and universities will need to be looked at but I hope there's other options.

    There's just been too many tragic stories like this (Worldwide) the past few years. I'll never be able to get my head around the hows and why's. Just senseless.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member slang05's Avatar
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    Something has to change to stop this kind of thing. I don't know if it's stricter gun laws (I know guns don't kill people, people do..but guns make it a whole lot easier) better treatment and detection of mental illness or arming teachers.. I dont know the answer, but we cant just do nothing. Something has to change. If it means giving up some rights as a gun owner to save a child's life..I'm in.
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  4. #24
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    Sadly, the places where the most innocent are gathered seem to be targeted. There is a reason you don't hear stories about mass shootings at places like bars known to cater to off duty police and gun club meetings.

    In the recent theater shooting, the gunman passed up several theaters which were both closer and showing the exact same movie in favor of the theater which had a no legal concealed guns allowed policy posted.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member captdg's Avatar
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    Well we outlawed liquor, drugs,prostitution,etc...This might sound insane and Im not a gun nut, but Law Enforcement cant be omnipresent...Maybe we have to get on that slippery slope and arm ourselves...At least when one of these idiots who couldnt get a date in High School bust a spring someone can neutralize him...Im at a loss for idea's.. Even in the wild west or the Al Capone days or Crips and Bloods,they didnt just kill everyone without reason. Am I crazy to think we need a citizen police force armed to the teeth?

  6. #26
    Senior Member vchizzle's Avatar
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    My heart goes out to all those affected in this tragedy. Hopefully, Bob, or anyone else here isn't directly involved. We have to take a good hard look at ourselves, America, what we're doing isn't working. I don't know the answers, but this has to stop. You can't point a gun at an innocent child and have a soul. To be honest, no law would've probably stopped this.
    Last edited by vchizzle; 12-15-2012 at 04:48 PM.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Daniel's Avatar
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    The murderer's weapon of choice is irrelevant and any discussion wasted on it is just a mask to hide the real problem. America is a country that glorifies murder. It is plastered all across the airwaves everyday and most young adults have grown up with it. Cop shows, serial killer shows, movies of the week. That nutjob grew up seeing parents, government officials and news anchors cheer and high-five each other while watching gun-camera footage of so-called "precision" bombing level houses full of innocent people. If the question is even asked, the answer is always "there are unconfirmed reports of civilian casualties", and it's never mentioned again. The images show men and women clutching their dead children but the sound bite is that the "suspected" were thought to be in the house (or school) and the mission was a success. Our society places no value on the lives of others or their children. How can children growing up here be expected to get it right? Parents? No, they're too busy out working to pay for that new flatscreen, cellphone, golf membership, BMW or McMansion to be bothered with their children. Besides, they have the latest x-box , Halo and Call of Duty, what else could they need?
    Last edited by Daniel; 12-15-2012 at 08:37 PM.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Dirty Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vchizzle View Post
    My heart goes out to all those affected in this tragedy. Hopefully, Bob, or anyone else here isn't directly involved. We have to take a good hard look at ourselves, America, what we're doing isn't working. I don't know the answers, but this has to stop. You can't point a gun at an innocent child and have a soul. To be honest, no law would've probably stopped this.
    My family members are all ok....thank you. Like everyone in civilized society they are extremely shaken up. As I mentioned my Aunt works in the school district. My cousin was in the same class and went through school with the guy. I'm up in that area with my family a lot....just pure craziness...last place you ever would think something like this would happen.

    I have been focused on talking to people about and buying teddy bears...for the teddy bear drives among other things...which seem very paltry given what occurred....children though need to feel like they are doing something to help....something to make an impact on those who are suffering...innocence shattered is terrible....And if a teddy bear can make the kids feel as if they are doing some good for others then so be it. We are seeing my niece and nephew tomorrow...there is talk of the students all convening going forward at my Aunt's school....or a school in a neighboring town....crazy stuff....I mean who the heck would want to go back to that building? All the other talk for the moment at least for now is a bit removed from the realities of what their community is currently faced with in trying to pick up the pieces...it is all sickening...and heart wrenching.
    Last edited by Dirty Bob; 12-16-2012 at 09:45 PM.
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  9. #29
    I'm not a gun owner. I have no dog in the gun control hunt. But it's obvious that the magic wand of a law controlling gun sales is incapable of solving this mass killing problem because the gun control genie left the bottle a long, long time ago. We already have 270 million guns out there in homes in the US today. Guns can be maintained in working order for a very long time. To think that a law governing gun sales is going to solve this problem is wishful thinking.

    At the same time, the idea that a group of armed elementary school teachers could successfully go after an armed gunman in a school like a trained SWAT team does with flash-bangs and assault rifles, and actually accomplish anything is well, good luck with that. Even the cops that responded didn't shoot a single bullet. This stuff happens quickly. It takes time to find a shooter in a building and clear the building. Ask someone in the military with experience doing this. Especially when children are around. In the time it takes to find out what's going on, the shooter's rampage can easily be completed.

    So maybe we should focus on another side to this discussion: how do you identify and stop people from acting on violent impulses like this particular shooter? Is it possible to learn what makes people do this? Sure, we can label them as evil, crazy, or both. But what do we really know? I submit, too little.

    This is the real problem. We don't know why people do this. We don't know who is likely to do this. We lack understanding of these most basic questions, and moreover, we don't know how to stop them. Yet they are a clear, present danger to our society. They are out there as surely as terror cells, or foreign enemies, or other folks we want to find and keep an eye on. For us to focus on their weapons is not going to help. Regardless of how we feel about weapons, the most basic problem will persist, and may simply manifest itself differently.

    We can't stop violence with ignorance, and it's not likely that we stop it by strapping guns on teachers, clergymen, department store clerks, etc, where a lot of the violence seems to be taking place. Rooting these people out is going to take study, time, and patience.

    It's just my two cents, but I don't see this problem being solved unless the country is serious about identifying the shooters before they act. And I don't know how you do that. We need to find out.

  10. #30
    Senior Member swede71's Avatar
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    Today the so called market dictates a reality the way it is supposed to be not the way it is.Cutting down the way to go including mental institutions.Legalizing drugs an important issue but helping addicts and people gettin sick from drugs soon gone.Its up to us they say.Democracy something we fight for in the middle east.In sweden we have strict weapon laws but still alot of shootings in the past 10 years.Globalisation also means the same problems everywhere.
    Last edited by swede71; 12-16-2012 at 05:26 AM.

  11. #31
    Senior Member captdg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel View Post
    The murderer's weapon of choice is irrelevant and any discussion wasted on it is just a mask to hide the real problem. America is a country that glorifies murder. It is plastered all across the airwaves everyday and most young adults have grown up with it. Cop shows, serial killer shows, movies of the week. That nutjob grew up seeing parents, government officials and news anchors cheer and high-five each other while watching gun-camera footage of so-called "precision" bombing level houses full of innocent people. If the question is even asked, the answer is always "there are unconfirmed reports of civilian casualties", and it's never mentioned again. The images show men and women clutching their dead children but the sound bite is that the "suspected" were thought to be in the house (or school) and the mission was a success. Our society places no value on the lives of others or their children. How can children growing up here be expected to get it right? Parents? No, they're too busy out working to pay for that new flatscreen, cellphone, golf membership, BMW or McMansion to be bothered with their children. Besides, they have the latest x-box , Halo and Call of Duty, what else could they need?

    Its like people have children as an afterthought, to round out their Curiiculum Vitae..And if and problems come up send them to a counselor or get them a new toy, that will make the problems go away...Daniel you have a sailient point.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by captdg View Post
    Its like people have children as an afterthought, to round out their Curiiculum Vitae..And if and problems come up send them to a counselor or get them a new toy, that will make the problems go away...Daniel you have a sailient point.
    I agree that there are a minority of people who probably don't make good parents. But it's also true that there are genetic factors and physical causes for certain kinds of mental illness that are barely understood.

    We tend to look for blame in our society, and what we need to do is look for solutions.

  13. #33
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    Anyone ever wonder why there is such a high rate of autism these days? Not saying the shooter had this, but clearly he had severe social problems as are now being documented after the fact.

    Anyone think it might have anything to do with the fact that lots of parents have no concept of how to socialize a child...they think that putting them in front of a PBS TV program...or having them listen to "Baby Einstein" is going to rear their children for them?? And play dates that are designed as status props for the parents as opposed to actual opportunities for the child to socialize.

    I am of the opinion that the high rate of autism and Asbergers and other "funny looking kid" syndromes has A LOT to do with the indifferent parenting that I see on a daily basis.

  14. #34
    Cream Crackered Mikegarveyblues's Avatar
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    I had a brother with Aspergers Syndrome and other mental issues. Although it can be genetic it seems he was an unfortunate one off. My parents did everything they could for him but it proved too much and he spent a large part of his childhood and early adult life in special schools and care homes. Eventually, the government changed how it dealt with people with mental issues. Once again we had to deal with a now grown man and where not really equipped to do so.

    What I will say is this. His condition meant he could at times be a little agressive. Brought about by frustration. He dealt with abuse from people in society who saw him as an easy target. Ultimately, he only hurt one person and that was himself.

    What this guy did was wholly different. It was cold and methodical. It seems he may have had some personality disorder. Did that lead him to do what he did? Who knows. Lets not start a witch hunt on those with mental disorders or their parents who may have done everything they could.

    I do see a lot of bad parenting these days, there's no doubt. It quite possibly is contributing to societys ills.

    You can't take someone with a form of autism and just 'socialise' them. That is their main disability. You can't bloody well cure it by being a perfect parent.

    The rate of autism is growing. Aspergers is still a fairly new and not veryu well understood type of autism. Are rates rising becaue they're getting better at diagnosing it? Is it environmental?

    People with mental problems are a heck of a lot more likely to be victims than be the ones who carry out attacks of some decription.

    It's all too easy to point and blame.

    Really... We seem to be good at trying to cure the symptoms but ignore the cause. Although, it seems we think the cure is to ignore. Perhaps it's because when we dig deep we don't like what we see. Attaching blame and pointing fingers is just an easy way of dealing with a situation. We can go "Hey, he had autism, schizophrenia, bi-polar, whatever, that's why he did it" and move on because we think we had an easy answer. And that's what'll happen to the averge person. They'll forget about it and move on. Until it happens again. And then they'll look for the next excuse.
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  15. #35
    chief Shawn@PRS's Avatar
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    Two siblings can be raised with the same parents and the same household and yet one becomes a neurosurgeon and one becomes a bum. It that poor parenting? Like Mike said, mental issues cannot be overcome with"perfect parenting".

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn@PRS View Post
    Two siblings can be raised with the same parents and the same household and yet one becomes a neurosurgeon and one becomes a bum. It that poor parenting? Like Mike said, mental issues cannot be overcome with"perfect parenting".
    Totally agree.

  17. #37
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    Don't think there is such a thing as "perfect parenting". But I do believe that there is an increase in "impaired parenting". And I'd never imply that an illness that one has a genetic predisposition to is the fault of the parents. It's just that there is such a dramatic increase in the incidence of the illness that you try to seek the variables involved. Seems to be another situation in which both "nature' and "nurture" play a role.

  18. #38
    chief Shawn@PRS's Avatar
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    The same arguments you are making have been made against the parents of every generation. looked at the "kids" from the roaring '20's or the Bobby Soxers or the hippie kids in the '60's people were saying "bad parenting" when they say the behavior of those young people too. Why are we see ing more instances of mental issues? First we have to ask, are we really seeing an increase or has a 24 hour news cycle made this behavior more apparent? Or perhaps some people would like us to believe that we need to ingest more pharmaceuticals so they create more "conditions" for us to treat? For the sake of argument let's just say we are seeing an increase in mental issues. Maybe there are some environmental issues at play? Has anyone done a study on the effect our food chain has on our minds? Artificial flavors and colors and chemicals I can even pronounce. Have we really looked into what these do to our mental health, because we know they are killing our bodies. Also, we live in a much more sedentary world. We sit most of our lives, while our ancestors were for the most part doing phusical labor or before that hunting and farming to survive. Exercise does amazing things for ones mental health. The lackadaisical parenting argument doesn't hold water.

  19. #39
    Senior Member Dirty Bob's Avatar
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    Gentlemen please keep in mind that the autistic spectrum denotes a neurodevelopmental condition from birth as opposed to a mental illness...two very very different conversations and not really related. I actually think the autistic spectrum even being associated with this incident is way off base.
    -Bob

  20. #40
    chief Shawn@PRS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyMoonsRJT View Post
    Gentlemen please keep in mind that the autistic spectrum denotes a neurodevelopmental condition from birth as opposed to a mental illness...two very very different conversations and not really related. I actually think the autistic spectrum even being associated with this incident is way off base.
    Hi Bob,

    I'm not trying to disparage autism or any other condition, I'm simply stating that we need to look at the cause and effect and we cannot simply say that any kid with an issue is because they have parents who are not trying hard enough.

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