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Thread: Is this "do-able"?? Can forum members contribute to a "classic rock music video"???

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by sergiodeblanc View Post
    Les! Don't cut back on posting unless you feel there are other areas in your life that need more attention right now, we are trying to make this place self-sustaining and you are a big part of that. I honestly look forward to your posts, and the knowledge you share.
    Thanks, man, but Bennett's right, even if he was kidding on the square. The day before Bennett's post, my wife said, "This isn't your job, you know, you don't have to reply to every single post on the internet."

    So in two days, two people have made the same observation. And sometimes I sign on here, and cringe, because there are multiple threads where the name on the most recent post reads, "LSchefman." Heck, there are times I have nothing to reply to except my own posts!

    That's just weird.

    There was a thread on Vintage Rocker complaining about certain people who think that only their opinions can be right. Well, I'm obviously one of those guys (even though my opinions ARE always right, no one wants to hear them over and over. ). So I'm trying to cut back.

    I talked about it with my wife, and she suggested that I start with weekends and evenings only.

    Thank goodness it's the weekend, because I was having withdrawal symptoms by noon today.

  2. #22
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    Les....don't cut back so dramatically, or WE will start going through withdrawal. Perhaps you can begin by only replying on odd hours of the day. And by reading posts only on even hours.

    And tell your wife that even though you are a sarcastic, biting, intellectual, somewhat-compulsive, at-times-arrogant and always self-confident member....your posts are enjoyed by the majority, we appreciate your sense of humor, you appear to have some degree of self-insight and you're becoming more empathetic daily. And....you entertain us!!






    Yeah....tell her we said that. OK...tell her I said that. And then, tell me what she says.

  3. #23
    Cream Crackered Mikegarveyblues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docbennett View Post

    See.....if anyone has the ability already, you are saving a lot of time. But...if you want me to spearhead this project, I'll do it. Just provide me with:


    • Several software recommendations I can choose from
    • A basic concept of what the learning curve will consist of
    • The various formats of video that can be sent to me..
      • youtube,
      • camcorder
      • smartphone
      • digital camera with video


    I will need to know how to consolidate the formats...OR (thinking as I type) AGREE ON A SINGLE FORMAT THAT ALL CONTRIBUTORS WILL UTILIZE FOR THE PROJECT

    Ball's in you guy's court for now.
    Few tips that I can think of:

    1.) Start a clean thread in the General section (Will be more noticable) with a catchy title "PRS Forum Spring Jam" as a crude example. See who commits.
    2.) Find a track for people to play over. Could be your own selection or a few which people vote on.
    3.) Organise who'll play over what section. Will it be a known track? Instrumental? Backing track that can be looped so everyone plays over the same section? Exact timings are important.
    4.) Deadlines for signing up and then for submitting the entry need to be given.
    5.) Participants should ideally be able to record their part without the beacking track being audible if possible (By use of headphones).
    6.) Participants need to produce a decent audio / video file. Not expert but the audio needs to be clear and free from clipping or other noise.
    7.) Each participant needs to provide a count in of some description. Either striking the strings in time with the beat just before playing or (If possible) providing two seperate vids. One without backing track one with for reference. Essential for syncing!!!
    8.) Participants must not go over their alloted time slot or it will be cut.
    9.) A maximum resolution should be considered. 720p is fine. Some video programmes will handle multiple formats. If the video programme has an issue then free software such as 'Any Video Converter' can be used to change it to a suitable format such as mp4 or WMV for example. Large file sizes should be discouraged. You'd set a resolution in the video software and frame rate such as 30fps... So maybe you'd set 720 30p (May read 29.97fps) as the project standard. depends what the computer can handle. May have to use th DVD format of 720 x 576 or is it 720 x 480 for the US? Widescreen.
    10.) You'll get better results working on the audio seperate but it seriously increases the workload!

    You'll want titles at the beginning and end and overlay the names of each participant.
    Ideally the vid editor needs to be able to handle multiple audio and video streams.
    May be best to have people upload their files to a file sharing site and PM you the link for download.

    Personally, i'm a fan of Sony Vegas Movie Studio but it's not necessarily beginner friendly. That said, providing the prep's done first (Converting some vids to a suitable format / size) then it's a question of leaning how to make cuts, add text overlays and settting the ideal parameters for the project and final export. There's lots of extras you can do to 'pimp' up the vid but that where things get more comlex and time consuming. I only say Sony vegas because that's what I know but there's a few good editors out there.

    This is just stuff off the top of my bonce so there's a lot i've left out!

    The worst that may happen is someone sends you an unworkable file. Either in the literall sense or because the quality is so poor you can't do anything with it. The vid editor should give you some control over audio levels. You don't want clipping or big volume jumps, etc..

    See how many sign up... If it's more than 10 then split them into as many groups as needed and i'll lend a hand. Up to you!

    Finally... Perhaps a new Y'ube channel should be created for this purpose. The final question would be how willing are people to have their stuff on Y'tube publicly? Would they rather the vid be set to unlisted so it can be embedded on here but not publicly searched for / commented on on Y'tube?

    Lots of stuff to think about.
    Last edited by Mikegarveyblues; 02-02-2013 at 06:45 PM.
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  4. #24
    OK, I'll quantify the project as long as we're on the subject. A typical pop-rock song is about 3 minutes. At 120 beats per minute (typical tempo), 15 people can play for 12 seconds each. That is 3 measures per player. To keep the tempo consistent, everyone would need to play to a click track or drums, etc.

    To find the right 3 measures, everyone's entire 3 minute video must be listened to so that the best bits get picked. It's 45 minutes to simply listen to everyone's video once after all the videos are loaded into the video editing software. I have no idea how much time it takes to load in, presumably not too long. An hour maybe? Couple of hours?

    Then phrases have to be picked out. Playing each video several times and taking notes is typical of what a video editor does when putting together scenes in a video, movie, or TV show. It can take a day or two, or a month or two, depending on how picky the editor is. This is complicated by the fact that 12 seconds is not 4 bars, or the eight bars more typical of a section of a song. So there have to be interruptions to single phrases. This will not be as easy to keep track of without getting confused as it might appear. I know, I've done it with audio, and I'm very experienced at audio editing.

    Your best bet is to limit the number of players so that everyone gets at least four bars. It's just musically simpler.

    Once all the three or four bar phrases are noted and selected, it's time to cut all the videos into the 12 or 16 second bits. Again, each video has to be watched at least to the entry and out points, and cut precisely on the beat. Then assemble them; this might take a few hours if all you want to do is line them up; the problem is the transitions.

    But you don't want huge audio pops and blips, so everything in the audio must be aligned on the exact beat, and crossfaded. Picture must also be edited correctly. As I said, I know nothing about picture editing, but presumably cuts instead of crossfades would be ok and faster to do.

    Based on what I've seen in the ad world, I think a good video editor could probably put together a rough cut in 4-5 days, and then the finish details could be completed in another couple-3 days. I have zero idea how this might play out for a hobbyist - and a lot depends on how detailed and good sounding one wants this to be. An ad-world pro editor is a different breed of cat when it comes to professional looking video.

    But I'd guess it's at least a good 40-50 hours of work even if you don't want high quality output.

    Am I way off on this estimate, Mike?
    Last edited by LSchefman; 02-02-2013 at 06:58 PM.

  5. #25
    Cream Crackered Mikegarveyblues's Avatar
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    Probaly not too far off... Certainly if the audio is worked on seperate to the video and then everything synced up in the vid editor. A lot of the time can be spent on prep. Communicating with everybody, downloading all the files, etc...

    When we did this on another forum we just chose a backing track... Say for instace a fairly simple blues track, and then got all the participants to play over the first one or two sequences. That way, everybody had 30 seconds to a minute (Roughly) of playing time. A loop was made of the backing track (To simplify things) and each persons part was synced up with the backing track, mixed and then synced again in the vid editor. Yuo can of course just do all the work in the vid editor and get OK results if you're careful but inevitably you're going to get better results doing audio and vid seperate.

    The problem is that you simply wont be able to have everybody stick to the same vid and audio file types, resolutions, bit rates, etc... So it's best to set a maximum of say 720 30p for video and 24bit 48khz for audio. For Y'tube there's little point going over this. YOu'll be limited by your PC and audio card / interfaces performance too. Maybe 16Bit 44.1k may be the max... This I don't know. certainly 720p and 24 / 48 is generally what I work with but it's best to find what works for you and your equipment and asking that people don't send files that exceed what you're working with.

    If you already have the back track then you don't have to worry about measures and bars quite so much as long as people give a count in to sync with. But if there's no BT then as Les said people would need to play to some kind of click. This complicates things.

    realistically things need to be kept as simple as possible. This is why i'm a little against the 15 second thing.

    There needs to be a consensus of what to play over. BT or no BT? To a backing track? To a backing track of a known tune? An Instrumental or trying to make it a full tune with vox and everything else.

    It's entirely possible to cut up a tune and loop parts to give extended jamming time... Double the length of a riff section, solo time, etc...
    Last edited by Mikegarveyblues; 02-02-2013 at 07:26 PM.
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Dirty Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSchefman View Post
    OK, I'll quantify the project as long as we're on the subject. A typical pop-rock song is about 3 minutes. At 120 beats per minute (typical tempo), 15 people can play for 12 seconds each. That is 3 measures per player. To keep the tempo consistent, everyone would need to play to a click track or drums, etc.

    To find the right 3 measures, everyone's entire 3 minute video must be listened to so that the best bits get picked. It's 45 minutes to simply listen to everyone's video once after all the videos are loaded into the video editing software. I have no idea how much time it takes to load in, presumably not too long. An hour maybe? Couple of hours?

    Then phrases have to be picked out. Playing each video several times and taking notes is typical of what a video editor does when putting together scenes in a video, movie, or TV show. It can take a day or two, or a month or two, depending on how picky the editor is. This is complicated by the fact that 12 seconds is not 4 bars, or the eight bars more typical of a section of a song. So there have to be interruptions to single phrases. This will not be as easy to keep track of without getting confused as it might appear. I know, I've done it with audio, and I'm very experienced at audio editing.

    Your best bet is to limit the number of players so that everyone gets at least four bars. It's just musically simpler.

    Once all the three or four bar phrases are noted and selected, it's time to cut all the videos into the 12 or 16 second bits. Again, each video has to be watched at least to the entry and out points, and cut precisely on the beat. Then assemble them; this might take a few hours if all you want to do is line them up; the problem is the transitions.

    But you don't want huge audio pops and blips, so everything in the audio must be aligned on the exact beat, and crossfaded. Picture must also be edited correctly. As I said, I know nothing about picture editing, but presumably cuts instead of crossfades would be ok and faster to do.

    Based on what I've seen in the ad world, I think a good video editor could probably put together a rough cut in 4-5 days, and then the finish details could be completed in another couple-3 days. I have zero idea how this might play out for a hobbyist - and a lot depends on how detailed and good sounding one wants this to be. An ad-world pro editor is a different breed of cat when it comes to professional looking video.

    But I'd guess it's at least a good 40-50 hours of work even if you don't want high quality output.

    Am I way off on this estimate, Mike?
    yeah...13 years ago (which is my only professional point of reference) in a studio with an avid and protools setup this would be about right.


    Mike's idea of a backing track is a good one.
    Last edited by Dirty Bob; 02-02-2013 at 07:32 PM.
    -Bob

  7. #27
    Cream Crackered Mikegarveyblues's Avatar
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    Ok... So somebody mentioned Little Wing, so we'll use this as an example...

    In order to elongate the track we could cut it and say, loop the verses or solo sections and double or triple the length of the track.

    1 person would do the intro, another two on a verse or two, another two on a solo section., etc...

    Each time the person is given the exact timing on the backing track. They'd start their recording a bar or two before their section starts so they can count in along to the beat of the track. That will then be edited out later.

    Everyone gets a shot at a part and they all know which part they play over.
    Modified SE Bernie Marsden, Fender Strat
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  8. #28
    In terms of the audio, after the whole video thing is pieced together, all the levels have to be evened out for every segment or it will sound awful. If people use video cameras to capture their audio, there will be a huge variety in terms of audio quality. I can say from personal experience that it will take hours to even out the levels, and forget about EQing and making the thing sound consistent. I have software to take care of ambient noise in dialog tracks, but that won't be possible in music tracks.

    So call a half-assed audio job "audio post" and that's another day to day and a half of work to simply make it semi listenable.

    So a total of 50-60 hours to have a bunch of guys play a rock song for a few seconds each and have it sound terrible even if people play well? And a bunch of guys making guitar faces for the camera and playing for a few bars each? I can imagine the reaction on other forums now.

    Ned, the Destroyer! Well, reputations will certainly be destroyed. I can't bring myself to do it.
    Last edited by LSchefman; 02-03-2013 at 01:30 AM.

  9. #29
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    OK...following some encouraging PM's I am going to review the last few posts in detail and that at some point probably start a new thread with all the knowledge we've gained. That way, we can offer a project without all the prior "backing and forth-ing" to get to this point. Thanks for the PMs and for the prior posts that provide some additional suggestions for the way to proceed! This should be fun.

    And...who cares how many hours it takes for those of us to complete this correctly (whatever that means)...after all...isn't that what a hobby is...devoting lots of time to something that others think is either wacko, or a total waste. To be continued. If anyone has further suggestions on how to proceed, easiest way to reach me is via email at drugdetox@aol.com

    BT....I think I did that calculation with the BPM and the # of seconds per participant in a 4.5 minute song back in the OP.....that's what makes it challenging and fun...I think...at this stage.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by docbennett View Post
    And...who cares how many hours it takes for those of us to complete this
    The person who takes on the responsibility of actually doing the heavy lifting (the video editing) might care.

    Your part will only take a few minutes. His or her part will take more than 40 hours.
    Last edited by LSchefman; 02-03-2013 at 09:30 AM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSchefman View Post
    The person who takes on the responsibility of actually doing the heavy lifting (the video editing) might care a great deal. Your part will only take a few minutes. His or her part will take more than 40 hours. The reason I calculated that and asked for opinions as to whether I was correct was to demonstrate what a big project this is -- for someone else to take on.

    Whether you're being selfish about asking someone to take on 100% of the real work is something you might think about. Even if you have someone willing to do it, maybe you could help with some of the production work.

    This is why I suggested that you might be generous with your own time and get into the swing and learn a little video editing. I honestly think you'd enjoy it. Or maybe you could help prep the files for editing. There'd be a lot to do. You could lighten the load for whoever takes this on.

    Or not.

    You know what schnoring is. .
    Les...I will try not to get toooooo annoyed...if your read friggin' post #18 and my subsequent posts you might have seen that I have already volunteered to do the entire video part...learn the software...receive the material and put it all together. So, your last post was out of left field. Yes...read that, and subsequent posts so that you can follow the concept and see that we are almost ready to start a new thread, now that "the director" is in place and we are just awaiting participants.

    I must admit...your last post really pissed me off. You have the capacity to intrigue me with your posts...or alternatively make me so fuggin' angry I need time to compose myself. Here, I volunteer...after getting some great PM's of encouragement and subsequent suggestions and advice...and you negate it in one fell swoop.

    You DID read all that, before calling me a schnorer, didn't you?? that was a bit too much of an insult to swallow so early on a Sunday after I was willing to volunteer all the time necessary to do this. I will await your apology. Feel free to take and post a photo of your foot sticking out of your mouth.

    And now, I will take some time away from the forum to cool off, before I say something I will really regret.
    Last edited by docbennett; 02-03-2013 at 09:39 AM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by docbennett View Post
    Les...I will try not to get toooooo annoyed...if your read friggin' post #18 and my subsequent posts you might have seen that I have already volunteered to do the entire video part...learn the software...receive the material and put it all together. So, your last post was out of left field. Yes...read that, and subsequent posts so that you can follow the concept and see that we are almost ready to start a new thread, now that "the director" is in place and we are just awaiting participants.

    I must admit...your last post really pissed me off. You have the capacity to intrigue me with your posts...or alternatively make me so fuggin' angry I need time to compose myself. Here, I volunteer...after getting some great PM's of encouragement and subsequent suggestions and advice...and you negate it in one fell swoop.

    You DID read all that, before calling me a schnorer, didn't you?? that was a bit too much of an insult to swallow so early on a Sunday after I was willing to volunteer all the time necessary to do this. I will await your apology. Feel free to take and post a photo of your foot sticking out of your mouth.

    And now, I will take some time away from the forum to cool off, before I say something I will really regret.
    You not only deserve an apology, you deserve kudos. I missed the part where you said you'd do it! Good. I'm proud of you. Excellent.

    I apologize. I'm really glad you decided to shoulder some of the heavy lifting. My faith in you as a human being is restored. You came through.

    In fact, my faith in humanity is restored. As a token of my esteem, and my shame at misjudging your character, I am going to send you a mint condition 8 x 11 full color PRS catalog from 2001. PM me your address. I just found it in my files, and I would guess as a collector of things PRS you might like it.

    Les
    Last edited by LSchefman; 02-03-2013 at 10:00 AM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegarveyblues View Post
    Few tips that I can think of:

    1.) Start a clean thread in the General section (Will be more noticable) with a catchy title "PRS Forum Spring Jam" as a crude example. See who commits.
    2.) Find a track for people to play over. Could be your own selection or a few which people vote on.
    3.) Organise who'll play over what section. Will it be a known track? Instrumental? Backing track that can be looped so everyone plays over the same section? Exact timings are important.
    4.) Deadlines for signing up and then for submitting the entry need to be given.
    5.) Participants should ideally be able to record their part without the beacking track being audible if possible (By use of headphones).
    6.) Participants need to produce a decent audio / video file. Not expert but the audio needs to be clear and free from clipping or other noise.
    7.) Each participant needs to provide a count in of some description. Either striking the strings in time with the beat just before playing or (If possible) providing two seperate vids. One without backing track one with for reference. Essential for syncing!!!
    8.) Participants must not go over their alloted time slot or it will be cut.
    9.) A maximum resolution should be considered. 720p is fine. Some video programmes will handle multiple formats. If the video programme has an issue then free software such as 'Any Video Converter' can be used to change it to a suitable format such as mp4 or WMV for example. Large file sizes should be discouraged. You'd set a resolution in the video software and frame rate such as 30fps... So maybe you'd set 720 30p (May read 29.97fps) as the project standard. depends what the computer can handle. May have to use th DVD format of 720 x 576 or is it 720 x 480 for the US? Widescreen.
    10.) You'll get better results working on the audio seperate but it seriously increases the workload!

    You'll want titles at the beginning and end and overlay the names of each participant.
    Ideally the vid editor needs to be able to handle multiple audio and video streams.
    May be best to have people upload their files to a file sharing site and PM you the link for download.

    Personally, i'm a fan of Sony Vegas Movie Studio but it's not necessarily beginner friendly. That said, providing the prep's done first (Converting some vids to a suitable format / size) then it's a question of leaning how to make cuts, add text overlays and settting the ideal parameters for the project and final export. There's lots of extras you can do to 'pimp' up the vid but that where things get more comlex and time consuming. I only say Sony vegas because that's what I know but there's a few good editors out there.

    This is just stuff off the top of my bonce so there's a lot i've left out!

    The worst that may happen is someone sends you an unworkable file. Either in the literall sense or because the quality is so poor you can't do anything with it. The vid editor should give you some control over audio levels. You don't want clipping or big volume jumps, etc..

    See how many sign up... If it's more than 10 then split them into as many groups as needed and i'll lend a hand. Up to you!

    Finally... Perhaps a new Y'ube channel should be created for this purpose. The final question would be how willing are people to have their stuff on Y'tube publicly? Would they rather the vid be set to unlisted so it can be embedded on here but not publicly searched for / commented on on Y'tube?

    Lots of stuff to think about.
    Thanks Mike...very helpful...I will work from and approach the task from these suggestions. As far as the youtube issue....we can set the video to "private" or "public only with a password" which should ensure that those who don't want to be seen in public are protected. thanks for the suggestions...I will collate all the comments and PM's received so far (THANKS AGAIN SERGIO!!) and start a new thread in the next day or so. See Les....at least some people read everything before calling me a schnorer (which, to those of you not versed in Yiddish...is a pretty damn bad insult....it basically tells someone that they are a selfish, self-centered person who doesn't care how their selfish acts impact on others. For other interpretations, I refer you the book..."If you want to say something nasty...say it in Yiddish".

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSchefman View Post
    You not only deserve an apology, you deserve kudos. I missed the part where you said you'd do it! Good. I'm proud of you. Excellent.

    I apologize. I'm really glad you decided to shoulder some of the heavy lifting. My faith in you as a human being is restored. You came through.

    Les
    Apology accepted. See...it's important to read the entire thread before impulsively responding.

    We are back to normal, and now there is more reason than ever to start a new, clean thread. thanks Les. And, everyone...look for a new thread by tonight or tomorrow...and I'll be sure to post it here so everyone can find it easily.

    Thanks again Les. Appreciate that.

  15. #35
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    BTW...responding to an earlier possible glitch mentioned...while we should all keep to the same BPM...we have some room for error. I refer you to the differences in tempo from the first segment to the final segment on "Strawberry Fields". If the Beatles, and George Martin can screw up time signature in the editing...well, perhaps there is some margin for error for us too.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by docbennett View Post
    Apology accepted. See...it's important to read the entire thread before impulsively responding.

    We are back to normal, and now there is more reason than ever to start a new, clean thread. thanks Les. And, everyone...look for a new thread by tonight or tomorrow...and I'll be sure to post it here so everyone can find it easily.

    Thanks again Les. Appreciate that.
    Seriously, I screwed up.

    Be sure to PM me your address so I can send that 2001 catalog your way. It's really nice. It's the one with the all-black pebble grain cover. Keep it with your memorabilia. I don't really collect this stuff, I just found it in a file with some manuals.
    Last edited by LSchefman; 02-03-2013 at 10:07 AM.

  17. #37
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    Bennett, have you considered learning the video software and doing the editing yourself?


































    You're never too old for tater tots.

  18. #38
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    OK.....(Voice of Flouner from Animal House)..."This is going to be GREAT".

    Look for the new thread. Coming to a forum near you, soon.

  19. #39
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    OK...let;s kill this thread and move our enlightened selves to here:

    http://prsguitars.com/forum/showthre...6902#post46902

    If you want to play, spread the word around the forum and lets see how many people we can attract.

  20. #40
    Senior Member sergiodeblanc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSchefman View Post
    sometimes I sign on here, and cringe, because there are multiple threads where the name on the most recent post reads, "LSchefman." Heck, there are times I have nothing to reply to except my own posts!

    That's just weird.
    No worries! There is a thread for that!
    http://prsguitars.com/forum/showthre...y-quot-Battle!

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