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Thread: If You Could Make One Trip Back In Time...

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiboy View Post
    Not music related, but I would hang at the Globe and catch all the openings of the Shakespeare plays, sitting next to the author.
    You'd sit next to Sir Francis Bacon???

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by WishICouldPlay View Post
    Anyone else old enough to have gone to the original Woodstock.
    I am and I did.
    20 years ago, it was pretty cool.
    Now, just means that your're really, really old.
    Father Time spares no-one.
    In the voice of Dennis, from "The Holy Grail"....

    "I'm Not Old....I'm only 57!"

    Of course, my Woodstock experience was being 13 years old and having to go to the Borsht Belt each summer with my parents to those tacky hotels in the Catskills. It rained most of that weekend, and driving home, we saw all these "hippies" standing on the side of the road, with signs indicating where they needed to hitch a ride to. Had no idea that the concert was only a few miles away....but, then again, in those days, my favorite band was "The Monkees" and I had just started to begin to appreciate "The Beatles" which was (to me at the time) a much more complicated sound to get used to. The "Woodstock" music....for me....was still about 3 years away from being appreciated.

    When it comes to Rock, and Music....I was a bit of a late starter.
    Last edited by docbennett; 02-11-2013 at 06:48 AM.

  3. #23
    Member dmorton67's Avatar
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    i'd go to the acid tests and see the grateful dead in san fran.
    Sometimes in life you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

    Dave

  4. #24
    Cream Crackered Mikegarveyblues's Avatar
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    I've limited this a bit by making it about observation... But what if you could interact as well (Without consequence)?

    Aside from the late 60's i'd also like to visit other times in history such as victorian era London, during the height of the Roman Empire... Maybe watch a show in the colloseum or even see how they really built the pyramids. Much more dangerous times though and i'm not sure i'd want to 'take part' in some of the activities that went on!
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegarveyblues View Post
    I've limited this a bit by making it about observation... But what if you could interact as well (Without consequence)
    Totally without consequence? And knowing what I know now????

    I'd go to a certain Forest Hills, Queens NY, neighborhood around '74 or so..hide out in the bushes..."take out" Markie (not our Markie....the other one!") using whatever means necessary. Then.... run over to Dee Dee's apartment. Bribe him with something he couldn't refuse....get him to introduce me to Johnny and Joey...Show them about $250 bucks worth of gear that they could use (that would impress them) and a car that actually worked....And then......


    wait for it.....



    "I'd join the Ramones!!!"



    But that means I'd be dead today....so, there are pros and cons to influencing history.

  6. #26
    Cream Crackered Mikegarveyblues's Avatar
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    That would be an issue... Even a tiny influence on history would spiral into a major change...

    I'd try and crow bar my way into the Beatles but I think i'd be sussed out and replaced pretty quick!
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  7. #27
    Name Manglin' Putz alantig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegarveyblues View Post
    That would be an issue... Even a tiny influence on history would spiral into a major change...

    I'd try and crow bar my way into the Beatles but I think i'd be sussed out and replaced pretty quick!
    It's been done.

    Alan

    "I watched approximately 45 seconds of 'Rock Of Ages'. It was like getting punched in the soul." - Abby Krizner

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by docbennett View Post
    You'd sit next to Sir Francis Bacon???
    Everyone needs a good ghost writer from time to time. One of my favorite and most quoted lines is from SFB: "A wise man will make more opportunities than he finds." So who actually wrote, "All that glitters is not goldTOP?"
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by docbennett View Post
    You'd sit next to Sir Francis Bacon???
    Talk about an urban legend!

    What bothers me about that old saw is that it's so completely absurd, and so ignorant of what historians and literary professionals know not only from other historians, but from the original documents bearing signatures, published by competitors, etc.

    It's based on the assumption that only a noble person could be a genius. It's ridiculous.

    A lot is known about the actual man, Shakespeare. Among many other things, this includes the fact that his father was Mayor of Stratford-upon-Avon, where he lived, who he married, who his children were, etc. We know where he went to school (that still exists as an active school, by the way), we know he studied Latin and that his education consisted at least in part of study of plays and study of the classical poets as part of the curriculum. This was not the primary and secondary education of a peasant, it was the substantial education of a rich burgher's son.

    We know that other playwrights of the time, who were college-educated (he was not, as his father had suffered bankruptcy at the end of his secondary education) objected to his popularity as they felt he'd been under-educated. Their criticisms still exist in original editions of the day, mentioning him by name. In fact, we know that his cousin published a criticism of his work because it was secular, and he felt that Shakespeare ought to write religious works inspired by god, and not for entertainment. Original editions of this exist, and mention him by name.

    We know that his plays contained "countryside" phrases and sayings and even spellings that were unique to the Stratford region (at the time, even spellings were often regional).

    We also know that later in life, he collaborated with younger playwrights! And we have his handwritten manuscripts of his suggestions and collaborations, complete with crossouts and changes. People with secret ghostwriters don't personally collaborate with others.

    There are records of his plays and his troupe, with all of their names, and the fact that he and they were actually appointed Royal players and playwright in the court of Charles I, where there are even written records of payments made to them in gold, and records of the fact that Shakespeare himself was given special red cloth for the coronation parade when Charles I was enthroned. In fact, we know that he was one of the special people who held one of the poles for a small coronation "tent" that was similar to a Jewish wedding "hupa".

    Commoners who have ghostwriters would never have gotten this appointment. Moreover, you have to remember that Elizabeth I and Charles I's England was a police state, where bitter divisions had arisen over the Reformation. There were spies everywhere; in fact, we have the original records where Shakespeare's father was turned in by a spy because he'd sold wool, which was a Royal prerogative exclusively, and he was fined. There were spies everywhere. A system very much like the German Reich under the nazis existed; civilian spies were actually rewarded with a percentage of the fines paid, but there was also a system of royal supporters who served the court as professional spies.

    The first protestant Tudors and their successors were utterly paranoid about a Catholic resurgence, and in fact, there was a very real Vatican-supported movement to overthrow them.

    Do you think that these royal spies would have been blissfully ignorant of whether or not William Shakespeare, the most popular author of his time, actually existed or was somehow unqualified to be a member of the Royal court for which he was commissioned to write plays (and did so, some being specifically written for court events for which there is also a record)? Absurd.

    We know that around the age of 18, Shakespeare himself was a member of the acting troupe he later used to present many of his plays. So we know he'd memorized the plays of his day, and learned the art by doing it. We know that his wife remained in Stratford and the Shakespeare was able to provide very substantial support to the household. We know that certain plays and poems reflect the tragedy of the loss of his son.

    We know that he bought a large house in London and substantial property in Stratford. He did this with the earnings from his work!

    Shakespeare's will is well known, and was handwritten. We know of lawsuits against him. We know he was part of the consortium that established the Globe Theater. All of these are in written documents from the time. We know that his friends and fellow actors wrote works dedicated to him.

    It is utterly ludicrous that these myths have arisen! It is as though one day people will argue that Bennett Oppenheim was never the shrink, it was really his buddy Les. Or that the Beatles couldn't have done what they did, it must have been Prince Charles because uneducated people couldn't write such brilliant music.

    Shakespeare was a real person, and a real writer, and didn't need some nobleman to ghost write his material.

    It all reminds me of people who think that aliens built the pyramids because human beings of the time - who were identical to modern people in genetics and intelligence - were somehow too dumb to be able to figure out how to build them. Or to be able to shape very close-fitting stones. Well...we can see the tool marks. They weren't shaped with lasers.

    This despite evidence of the failures of earlier pyramid building attempts that clearly demonstrate that a learning curve was involved, and several thousand years of mud brick pyramids and mastabas that were built from about 4000 BC showing a line of engineering development that occurred over a long period of time.

    Some idiot on TV has declared that Einstein was part alien. Reeeeaaaaallly? A human being with a degree in physics can't come up with an original theory and test it mathematically? I suppose that Newton was an alien, too.

    All this conspiracy theory BS makes me crazy. It's the product of speculation with a complete lack of understanding the actual evidence. The fact that our society tolerates, and even lionizes, ignorance is part of the insanity of modern life.
    Last edited by LSchefman; 02-12-2013 at 10:48 AM.

  10. #30
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    Wow, Les...that was a great lecture. Without being sarcastic, I did enjoy the history lesson. and of course, my post that you replied to was merely my flippent "sense of humor"...but I did enjoy your literate and well thought out response.

    Now...that being said....next question...who really wrote the plays attributed to Neil Simon?????

  11. #31
    Cream Crackered Mikegarveyblues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alantig View Post
    It's been done.

    Is that Eddie Murphy's face superimposed on Little Richards?
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  12. #32
    Cream Crackered Mikegarveyblues's Avatar
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    "All this conspiracy theory BS makes me crazy. It's the product of speculation with a complete lack of understanding the actual evidence. The fact that our society tolerates, and even lionizes, ignorance is part of the insanity of modern life."

    Good line Les!
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegarveyblues View Post
    "All this conspiracy theory BS makes me crazy. It's the product of speculation with a complete lack of understanding the actual evidence. The fact that our society tolerates, and even lionizes, ignorance is part of the insanity of modern life."

    Good line Les!
    With the exception of the fact that, based on the stuff I've read and been personally exposed to over the past 40 years....nothing will ever convince me that there have not been extraterrestrial visitors and that alien intelligence impacted on early civilization.

    Don't get me started on Roswell...I would bet my house and all my posessions that we concealed evidence of the crash landing and that at least one of the aliens was alive for a short while following impact. While I can't reveal my sources, I can tell you that this goes way beyond the book "The day after Roswell" (which I recommend) and has a lot to do with my personal interviews of low level airmen assigned to New Mexico circa the summer of 1947.

    Sorry for the derail, but this is one of my favorite topics of discussion.

    Just my beliefs...but then again, I don't believe in the single bullet theory either.

  14. #34
    [QUOTE=docbennett;49661]Wow, Les...that was a great lecture. Without being sarcastic, I did enjoy the history lesson. and of course, my post that you replied to was merely my flippent "sense of humor"...but I did enjoy your literate and well thought out response./QUOTE]

    Yes, I should have said, "I know Bennett is kidding about this."


    Quote Originally Posted by docbennett View Post
    With the exception of the fact that, based on the stuff I've read and been personally exposed to over the past 40 years....nothing will ever convince me that there have not been extraterrestrial visitors and that alien intelligence impacted on early civilization.
    Except that there is no evidence for this in the archaeological or historical record. Zero, none. We have many artifacts of early civilizations, but not one shred of evidence for this.

    Doesn't mean that there weren't aliens visiting - I think it's possible, however remotely - but there is no evidence that they impacted early civilization, except conjectural speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by docbennett View Post
    Don't get me started on Roswell...I would bet my house and all my posessions that we concealed evidence of the crash landing and that at least one of the aliens was alive for a short while following impact. While I can't reveal my sources, I can tell you that this goes way beyond the book "The day after Roswell" (which I recommend) and has a lot to do with my personal interviews of low level airmen assigned to New Mexico circa the summer of 1947.

    Sorry for the derail, but this is one of my favorite topics of discussion.

    Just my beliefs...but then again, I don't believe in the single bullet theory either.
    I have no firsthand knowledge of Roswell.

    However, I have seen multiple demonstrations that bullets' courses do not stay straight after impacting people, but do in fact tumble and go off course. This is demonstrable both with animals whose anatomy is similar to humans such as pigs, and with gelatin tests, and doctors who have treated military wounds have also proven it.

    One of the Medical Examiners in Detroit did tests years ago on human cadavers with various kinds of impacts, and I read his book to prepare for his cross-examination in a case I had as a very young lawyer. You might be surprised if you reviewed the literature and saw the test photographs and films.

    Again, there isn't tangible evidence of more than one shooter in the Kennedy assassination, just speculation based on conjecture that seems to "make sense" if you don't have knowledge of the physics involved.
    Last edited by LSchefman; 02-12-2013 at 01:26 PM.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSchefman View Post
    [I have no firsthand knowledge of Roswell.
    It really deserves a thread of its own. However, I have paranoid suspisions that whoever started it would come under immediate government scrutiny.

    I got interested in this topic when I started researching those civilians who were interviewed (and allegedly threatened) by the men in black who came to meet with them in the months following the Roswell incident.

    After that, I started to research the claims of very valid and respected sources (e.g. Buzz Aldin, Air force fighter pilots, etc).

    For me....the deal maker was when I met a few guys in their late 70's, who had no reason to lie, and who were on military air force bases in the area during that time frame.

    Have you ever met someone who was a nice decent person...but who lacked the guile and intelligence to pull off a lie??? Some of these guys I personally spoke with would fall into that category.

    Anyway, I'll keep the rest to myself, and just state that it is a fascinating area of research and that much of what I have read involves a governmental conspiracy to keep the general population unaware of these visitations and contact. For whatever reasons, I am not certain. Other than it would cause an immediate reconsideration of many of the Fundamentalist religions.

    For further information...read "The Day after Roswell" written by a retired officer. That will get your feet wet. Then, if you are still interested, do some research on what Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong encountered when they landed on the moon, and what they claim to have seen. Not kidding here...it's available if you look for it. Try Richard Belzer's (yes...that Richard Belzer) book "UFOs, JFK, and Elvis: Conspiracies You Don't Have to Be Crazy to Believe".

    Thanks for the bully pulpit. I seem to have taken us right off the rails, haven't I.
    Last edited by docbennett; 02-12-2013 at 01:36 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by docbennett View Post
    It really deserves a thread of its own. However, I have paranoid suspisions that whoever started it would come under immediate government scrutiny.

    I got interested in this topic when I started researching those civilians who were interviewed (and allegedly threatened) by the men in black who came to meet with them in the months following the Roswell incident.

    After that, I started to research the claims of very valid and respected sources (e.g. Buzz Aldin, Air force fighter pilots, etc).

    For me....the deal maker was when I met a few guys in their late 70's, who had no reason to lie, and who were on military air force bases in the area during that time frame.

    Have you ever met someone who was a nice decent person...but who lacked the guile and intelligence to pull off a lie??? Some of these guys I personally spoke with would fall into that category.

    Anyway, I'll keep the rest to myself, and just state that it is a fascinating area of research and that much of what I have read involves a governemental conspiracy to keep the general population unaware of these visitations and contact.

    Thanks for the bully pulpit.
    In the case of the Kennedy murder, certainly there have been unanswered questions over the years as scientific knowledge has progressed and standards for things like investigations and autopsies have become more sophisticated, and things might be documented differently today.

    But life ain't perfect. That doesn't automatically mean there was some kind of great conspiracy. And we know from modern maniacs' behavior that a single-minded, lone assassin, is hardly an unusual actor in history. In fact, a single shooter is far more likely than a group of conspirators. We have plenty of evidence of this in recent violence, and there are plenty of relatives' reports on Lee Oswald that he was certainly having the kinds of emotional problems that have been described regarding other single shooters, like the guy who killed Lennon, and the recent school shooter. We have seen lone actors in the President Garfield assassination, the Texas Tower mass killer, many serial killers, several who made attempts on presidents like Ford, etc.

    Of course, there are also conspiracies like Lincoln, 911, and to a lesser degree, Columbine (only two kids involved in that one). But we have evidence for those conspiracies, and nothing but speculation in the case of John Kennedy and even Robert Kennedy.

    As to Roswell, as I said, I don't know enough. I have heard the interviews with some of our astronauts and pilots, and I'm fine with the idea that something might be out there. In fact, it might not be aliens, it might be alien drones that could make a several-hundred year journey across light years. This actually makes more sense to me, but again, it's all speculation on my part.

    There's nothing in the way of physical evidence that we can look at, unfortunately.

    I don't believe in the supernatural, which is why I do not profess a religious belief. It's also hard for me to believe in alien visitations, though I will certainly concede the possibility of each.
    Last edited by LSchefman; 02-12-2013 at 01:43 PM.

  17. #37
    Senior Member swede71's Avatar
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    I would like to go back to the late 70s early 80s.In the neighboring municipality Europe,Yngwie Malmsteen,Universe and a bunch of other great bands created history.I would like to go back to that time and check out local gigs and hang with the boys and drink lots of beer.Ask Yngwie and John Norum how-to questions.

    Last edited by swede71; 02-12-2013 at 01:58 PM.
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  18. #38
    Name Manglin' Putz alantig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docbennett View Post
    It really deserves a thread of its own. However, I have paranoid suspisions that whoever started it would come under immediate government scrutiny.
    If Bennett's writing style suddenly changes, we'll know why!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by LSchefman View Post
    In the case of the Kennedy murder, certainly there have been unanswered questions over the years as scientific knowledge has progressed and standards for things like investigations and autopsies have become more sophisticated, and things might be documented differently today.
    Being near Pittsburgh, I've had the chance to hear Dr. Cyril Wecht speak about the Kennedy assassination numerous times, both in person and on the late (and dearly missed) Doug Hoerth's radio talk show. Wecht was somewhat critical of John Connelly and the Connelly family for not having the bullet fragments removed from Gov. Connelly's wrist, either while alive or after his death. He pointed out that those fragments would provide the scientific evidence to immediately prove or disprove the single bullet. Not that it would have shut up the conspiracy theorists.

    I have read a lot of books about the assassination, although not in a number of years because I burned out on them. Although there are a couple of great comedic bits about it, my favorite being Bill Hicks.

    NSFW:



    My next favorite is from Tim Wilson at the beginning of this bit.

    Last edited by alantig; 02-12-2013 at 10:26 PM.
    Alan

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  19. #39
    Name Manglin' Putz alantig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikegarveyblues View Post
    Is that Eddie Murphy's face superimposed on Little Richards?
    That's Clarence, the fifth Beatle. Paul and John kicked him out and stole all his ideas!

    Yep - Eddie Murphy from an old SNL bit. I forget sometimes that you Brits didn't get to see all that.
    Alan

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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by alantig View Post
    If Bennett's writing style suddenly changes, we'll know why!!!
    Good morning to all of you. I seem to recall someone from the government visiting last night, but the last thing I seem to recall is a very bright flash of light.

    OK...gonna water my plants, and then tend to my geraniums. This is the "Orchids and Flower Cultivation" forum, is it not???

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