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Thread: Pernambuco vs. Chaltecoco Pernambuco

  1. #21
    408 Sig Club President Twinfan's Avatar
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    Yep, cheers Shawn! Looking forward to your reponse

  2. #22
    408 Sig Club President Twinfan's Avatar
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    Les,

    I have no problem with the pernambuco guitars I own, they're superb. Part of my personal justification for paying their upcharge was that I was getting something rare, and so the upcharge was somewhat validated.

    I'm curious to know if this new stuff is the same as the old stuff or not. If it's different, then I need to know what's different about it before I pay the large premium in the future for another Collection model or similar. If the new stuff is plentiful and can be obtained very easily in large quantities, then my own evaluation of its "worth" would change significantly.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Twinfan View Post
    Les,

    I have no problem with the pernambuco guitars I own, they're superb. Part of my personal justification for paying their upcharge was that I was getting something rare, and so the upcharge was somewhat validated.

    I'm curious to know if this new stuff is the same as the old stuff or not. If it's different, then I need to know what's different about it before I pay the large premium in the future for another Collection model or similar. If the new stuff is plentiful and can be obtained very easily in large quantities, then my own evaluation of its "worth" would change significantly.
    Why, if the purpose is to sound good and it does? What if your high-buck pernie neck that you say is superb was the fence post stuff? Then it clearly wouldn't be for fence posts, would it?

    It's really hard for me to believe that people are such suckers for this mythology.

    People are raving about their obeche private stocks, and how good they sound, and how light they are, until they find out the stuff is actually one of the cheaper woods. Suddenly, this magical stuff is junk, right?

    Or maybe it isn't. Maybe it's worth experimenting a little?

    If you're buying an instrument, buy it because it sounds good. If you're buying a myth, caveat emptor.

    There's a guy in NY who's making Teles out of old reclaimed pine. He's getting a premium for it. For what?

    It's PINE! Geez. Cheapest wood building material there is. Not considered a tone wood. Suckahs!

    People will buy anything they think is "rare" without giving a thought to using some common sense.
    Last edited by LSchefman; 02-21-2013 at 11:05 AM.

  4. #24
    408 Sig Club President Twinfan's Avatar
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    If the neck of my two pernies were (or indeed are!) made of fence post wood, then I would be INCREDIBLY angry that they were sold to me at great expense as "the wood that $30,000 violin bows are made out of".

    It's all about knowing what you're buying, and whether the associated price matches the value you place on that. It's got nothing to do with the instrument itself per se, but about the Sales of Goods Act.

    Would you be happy ordering a steak off the menu, which was sold as steak and tasted good, but you then found out it was human flesh?

  5. #25
    Prince of Paisley iahawk36's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSchefman View Post
    Here's what makes me kind of scratch my head, guys, and please forgive me.

    People have been going on and on about how absolutely great their pernie guitars sound, and how wonderful they are. There have been posts on forums how the notes just jump off the neck, and how lively they are.

    Someone posts a statement that the wood being used is suitable only for fence posts that he got off the internet, and suddenly, do the guitars not sound as good now?

    It's the same load of BS as the sinker mahogany thing all over again.

    I bought a Sig Ltd knowing full well that the wood didn't sit in a lake for 100 years or whatever, just a few months ago, unlike some who were into mythology and "rarity" which to me is complete BS and absolutely not a reason to buy a musical instrument.
    My ONLY problem with it, as it was with "sinker gate" is that they're advertising it knowing full well that it either IS or IS NOT the same as the previous batch of pernambuco. My opinion, is that PRS knows their customer base well enough to know that it makes a difference to some of them, so why not fully disclose that information up front? Someone will ALWAYS ask, so I would think it would go a long way from a PR standpoint to disclose that info at least to the dealers, even if they don't want to post it publicly.

    If it's a great guitar, regardless of the wood, it's a great guitar....absolutely true. For SOME folks though, it DOES in fact make a difference. I bought into the "sinker" wood because in the instrument making world, that term means something very specific, and people (including me) bought that guitar with that specifically in mind. Some felt cheated after finding out that "sinker" wood didn't mean the same thing as the industry standard. Some folks didn't care one bit. Just my .02.
    "He's kind of like a bear at a campsite...you think he's cute and kind of want to hug him, but in the end you know he's dangerous and is going to stomp on your tent and eat all your food..." - martysnarf

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Twinfan View Post
    If the neck of my two pernies were (or indeed are!) made of fence post wood, then I would be INCREDIBLY angry that they were sold to me at great expense as "the wood that $30,000 violin bows are made out of".

    It's all about knowing what you're buying, and whether the associated price matches the value you place on that. It's got nothing to do with the instrument itself per se, but about the Sales of Goods Act.

    Would you be happy ordering a steak off the menu, which was sold as steak and tasted good, but you then found out it was human flesh?
    I'd think they'd get a premium for People Steak...

    I'm just yanking your chain on your pernambuco, all you have to do is look at it and it's the same wood as the wood in the pernie pictures on the internet. Lots of people posted their pics of their clear coated necks and guitar back and sides, and it's clearly the same red-orange, tight-grained, stuff.

    But you were the one telling me to get one of these Collection guitars, because it is so great, etc, and so much better sounding than your Sig Ltd, etc. I'd really kind of get a kick out of it if it WAS the fencepost stuff. Because it would show one of two things: either the fencepost stuff is actually NOT for fenceposts, or because you simply had convinced yourself of something that had no relationship to reality.

    Either way, it's kind of interesting, though I'm guessing you know your guitars enough to know that they really do sound great.

    But they're TELLING you in this case that it's chaltecoco or whatever. They're telling you right up front.

    It ain't the same stuff. All you have to do is look it up. That's why I posted the link I did earlier in this thread.

    There's NOTHING to get bent out of shape about. Don't buy it if you don't want it.

    As for me, it wasn't an option in the first place. I'm just entertained watching the high-end guys squirm a little.
    Last edited by LSchefman; 02-21-2013 at 11:23 AM.

  7. #27
    chief Shawn@PRS's Avatar
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    Chaltecoco is the same genus as Pernambuco, but they are a different species. Just as Cocobolo’s scientific name is Dalbergia Retusa and Brazilian Rrosewood’s scientific name is Dalbergia Negra. Same genus (rosewood), but different species. Chaltecoco is similar to Pernambuco in tonal quality, density and appearance. Again, same genus, different species.

    As for Chaltecoco being used in construction, yes that is true. But guess what? 200 years ago Brazilian rosewood was also used in construction. Where do you think we get our Brazilian rosewood today? You think we’re out cutting down BRW trees? Nope! We are harvesting beams from old homes and barns. Should Brazilian Rosewood be considered ‘junk wood’ because it was once used to fence in cattle?

  8. #28
    Auth. PRS Dealer TGSCAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn@PRS View Post
    Chaltecoco is the same genus as Pernambuco, but they are a different species. Just as Cocobolo’s scientific name is Dalbergia Retusa and Brazilian Rrosewood’s scientific name is Dalbergia Negra. Same genus (rosewood), but different species. Chaltecoco is similar to Pernambuco in tonal quality, density and appearance. Again, same genus, different species.

    As for Chaltecoco being used in construction, yes that is true. But guess what? 200 years ago Brazilian rosewood was also used in construction. Where do you think we get our Brazilian rosewood today? You think we’re out cutting down BRW trees? Nope! We are harvesting beams from old homes and barns. Should Brazilian Rosewood be considered ‘junk wood’ because it was once used to fence in cattle?

    I have a great old mahogany lawyers desk at home.. it has sexy MAHOGANY legs ;-))

    Like mine ;-))

  9. #29
    All this, and I'm out of popcorn!

  10. #30
    Auth. PRS Dealer TGSCAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSchefman View Post
    All this, and I'm out of popcorn!

    HA !

    ;-)

  11. #31
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    Les...you are totally missing the point on this one. As the PRS Forum's chief apologist, you are always first to jump up and defend the company. We have had some heated arugements about this in the past...although I am glad that we have remained friends.

    Listen...this is what you are missing.....it's not the sound...not the tone...it's the price being paid for a premium wood that is later found to possibly NOT be the premium wood we are paying for. It's the "sinker crap" all over again.

    When you pay for something that is described as something...and then find out that what you paid for was ersatz...you are well within your rights to be upset.

    this has NOTHING to do with the overall quality of the tone, or the woods or anything related, IMO. It has EVERYTHING to do with how a product is represented, and then "modified" from the original presentation.

    If the "new PB" is the "Coco PB" than I would want a significant refund on the bucks that I paid for a product that was advertised differently than it is now represented.

    I value your opinions on music, production and related issues, Les. But, when it comes to PRS, I see the defense attorney in you coming out in spades. I still respect your opinion, but find you to be somewhat subjective in your defense arguements.

    Your friend, Bennett


    Edit.....and to further the arguement....As an example only....if you buy genuine PAF's...you are NOT paying for the actual PAF's tone...you are paying for the mythology and rarity, since we all know the variablility of these pickups.
    Last edited by docbennett; 02-21-2013 at 11:58 AM.

  12. #32
    Vamanos Pest QueenCityGuitars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn@PRS View Post
    Chaltecoco is the same genus as Pernambuco, but they are a different species. Just as Cocobolo’s scientific name is Dalbergia Retusa and Brazilian Rrosewood’s scientific name is Dalbergia Negra. Same genus (rosewood), but different species. Chaltecoco is similar to Pernambuco in tonal quality, density and appearance. Again, same genus, different species.
    Thanks for the explanation, Shawn. Will the spec sheets for the new Private Stocks made state "Chaltecoco Pernambuco" (Caesalpinia Velutina) as the neck wood to differentiate those from the Paul's 28, Violin Guitar, and Private Stocks where the spec sheet states "Pernambuco" (Caesalpinia Echinata)?

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by docbennett View Post
    Les...you are totally missing the point on this one. As the PRS Forum's chief apologist, you are always first to jump up and defend the company. We have had some heated arugements about this in the past...although I am glad that we have remained friends.
    Bennett, you know I value your friendship very much. I realize there are two points of view. Of course!

    I just like tweaking you guys, and I see PRS as being completely upfront here about these Streptococco necks.

    And why am I a PRS apologist on this? Because I value PRS for their instruments, not their collector value. I think collector value stuff is a waste of time. Always have. I've said so many times, and I've been 100% consistent.

    Also, I will say that PRS sometimes caters to collectors, which I don't think is a good idea, but then I don't run their business. Collectors appear to be fair game, and if they can make a buck on this nonsense, so be it.

    Quote Originally Posted by docbennett View Post
    Listen...this is what you are missing.....it's not the sound...not the tone...it's the price being paid for a premium wood that is later found to possibly NOT be the premium wood we are paying for. It's the "sinker crap" all over again...
    But supposedly you're paying for the wood *because of the tone* it's known for. Just a little reminder. You can't see the...erm...forest for the trees. It's not the name and the rarity that makes it valuable, it's the tone in the first place.

    That's what you're missing! Rarity, in and of itself, has zero intrinsic value. An instrument that sounds good is the intrinsic value.

    I'm aware of the mythology and the rarity thing that people gladly line up to shell out money for. And I think it's complete lunacy. But that's just me. If you want that, you're surely entitled to it.

    But you guys maybe shouldn't really be buying instruments, You should be buying furniture or something. You can find plenty of rare antiques on the market so you can look at them and brag about how rare they are.

    Maybe the price of some of this stuff would come down if the mythology wasn't worshipped by people who don't care WHY the myth started in the first place, i.e., tone, and are only interested in the NAME and the status symbol or resale worth.

    Hell, if you want to collect rare stuff, just buy an upside down stamp or something. Now there's a scrap of paper worth a zillion dollars....sheesh. Or invest in some RARE cardboard! Baseball cards! That's something the world needs more of...something with no intrinsic value whatsoever except rarity.

    Quote Originally Posted by docbennett View Post
    Edit.....and to further the arguement....As an example only....if you buy genuine PAF's...you are NOT paying for the actual PAF's tone...you are paying for the mythology and rarity, since we all know the variablility of these pickups.
    And you buy them for what? For the privilege of saying, "Wow, these are original PAFs, they don't sound all that great, but they're RARE."

    Oh boy!

    Which is why I would never in a million, billion, years buy genuine PAFs when I can get something every bit as good, if not better, without paying a premium (and an outrageous one at that!) for someone's old rusty junk.
    Last edited by LSchefman; 02-21-2013 at 12:41 PM.

  14. #34
    Senior Member Dirty Bob's Avatar
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    I find the whole tone wood selection process very intriguing...specifically how Brent has been doing his runs...they look amazing and everyone has raved about the combinations.

    I see both sides of the arguement here... As long as its disclosed up front I don't see a problem...if it's not then there's an issue.

    I can understand being upset if there was a very rare type of wood being used...as is the case here....but having paid attention over the years when steve posts a shot of a body blank or a neck blank with a wholesale price he paid for it, etc....and also recenly having taken a look at a cost for materials breakdown that Ron Thorn posted which included costs for BRW boards (knowing the quality of wood he has his hands on) ....much of the cost is the labor..and who is doing it. A lot of this is paying for the art, the craft and the experience of the craftsmen...which in a way makes a ton of sense...we are paying for the most finely crafted instruments in the world by the top craftsmen...If in the end its built flawlessly, sounds good and looks good...and has the luthiers pedigree..hopefully it will be cherished by those who have managed to get their hands on one.
    Last edited by Dirty Bob; 02-21-2013 at 12:17 PM.
    -Bob

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyMoonsRJT View Post
    I find the whole tone wood selection process very intriguing...specifically how Brent has been doing his runs...they look amazing and everyone has raved about the combinations.

    I see both sides of the arguement here... As long as its disclosed up front I don't see a problem...if it's not then there's an issue.

    I can understand being upset if there was a very rare type of wood being used...as is the case here....but having paid attention over the years when steve posts a shot of a body blank or a neck blank with a wholesale price he paid for it, etc....and also recenly having taken a look at a cost for materials breakdown that Ron Thorn posted which included costs for BRW boards (knowing the quality of wood he has his hands on) ....much of the cost is the labor..and who is doing it. A lot of this is paying for the art, the craft and the experience of the craftsmen...which in a way makes a ton of sense...we are paying for the most finely crafted instruments in the world by the top craftsmen...If in the end its built flawlessly, sounds good and looks good...and has the luthiers pedigree..hopefully it will be cherished by those who have managed to get their hands on one.
    Yes, yes, yes, and yes. +1

  16. #36
    Vamanos Pest QueenCityGuitars's Avatar
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    Just to keep things on the soul side, the intent of my thread was to inform (particularly myself) and differentiate the nuances (if any) between the old and new Pernambuco neck material. It's nice that we have a source of truth for these types of questions rather than random theories and opinions being posted. No need to pollute the waters with extemporaneous minutiae.

  17. #37
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    I guess the question all boils down to whether people are buying guitars because of the rarity of the materials.

    Fine by me if people are buying, at least to some extent, because of the rarity of materials (I don't by the way). If they are, and it sounds to me like that factored to some extent into Twinfan's decision to go with a $1K upcharge, I can see why he's not happy if it turns out that the material used in his instrument wasn't as "rare" as he was led to believe. The argument that the actual matierial doesn't affect tone isn't particularly the point so far as I can see. Afterall, plenty pay more for fancy figured tops, special inlays, etc., and I don't think that too many people think that this affects tone.

    I have a vintage LP. The reason I like it is that it's old, and I just like the idea of playing a neat old instrument that has been around the block, played by who knows who, and there just aren't that many left around. My reissue sounds as good (to me) but I'd be bummed if I found that the vintage LP was really some fake aged 4 year old guitar. If that happened, the argument that I should "get over it....it sounds great doesn't it???", wouldn't make much sense to me.

    Having said all of that, since I personally don't factor "rarity of matierials" into what gets me jazzed about a guitar, it wouldn't bug me too much. I can see where it would others though.

  18. #38
    chief Shawn@PRS's Avatar
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    I have no idea what the specs sheets will say, but the wood is being openly marketed as Chaltecoco. But why Chaltecoco Pernambuco? Because most people (myself included) have no idea that Chaltecoco and Pernambuco are realted. Is it marketing spin? Absolutely, but that's what marketing is supposed to do, get people excited and have them spend some money.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by aristotle View Post
    I guess the question all boils down to whether people are buying guitars because of the rarity of the materials.

    Fine by me if people are buying, at least to some extent, because of the rarity of materials (I don't by the way). If they are, and it sounds to me like that factored to some extent into Twinfan's decision to go with a $1K upcharge, I can see why he's not happy if it turns out that the material used in his instrument wasn't as "rare" as he was led to believe.
    Two things here:

    One, this run IS being marketed as chaltemcoccus or whatever it is. They're being upfront! What's the reason for complaint?

    No one has said the prior Collection run was streptobucco or whatever. Maybe that will happen, maybe not.

    What's going on is that suddenly the guys who bought the PRIOR run of choccebubuccopernie are nervously eyeing their instruments as suddenly not being worth it. So let's recognize what the brouhaha is all about. Anxiety.

    It ain't the new run that's the issue. It's the old run that is the elephant in the room.

    Two, Twinfan was absolutely raving about his Collection PS Sig Ltd. Said it was much better than the standard model. Told me I should get one, it was that much better.

    So if it was good enough to rave about...maybe it doesn't matter which variety of wood it is. Maybe that's worth a grand.

    Then again, what do I know? I think the whole thing is a boatload of fish. As was the last sinker thing.

    I got a sinker model with artist top, nice case, first class appointments, for less than a 408 mahogany artist pack. And I didn't get a special deal. I paid the standard fare, I was told on VR. Who the hell paid an upcharge even for that one? It was the same price as an artist pack, or less, all along! Nothing to complain about, move along, right?

    But I'll say again what did happen: the resale value of these Sig Ltds went into the tank. People killed the value of their own instruments! Nuts. Nuts. Nuts.

    Doesn't bother me, I'm keeping mine. If I was Brent, and I had 5 of these Paul PS on order, though, I'd be shaking my head at how goofy people can be about something that's perfectly good.
    Last edited by LSchefman; 02-21-2013 at 01:21 PM.

  20. #40
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    Oh...I wasn't suggesting that it was (or wasn't for that matter) marketed correctly. Just saying that one way or the other, it wasn't what Twinfan was thinking it was, and it's not unreasonable that he might be unhappy if he finds that the neck material wasn't as rare as he thought...regardless of how great the tone is. You might not care about rarity, and I might not either..And for that matter, for all I know, this "other" type of Pernambuco is just as rare.

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