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Thread: Pernambuco vs. Chaltecoco Pernambuco

  1. #61
    Senior Member Dirty Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twinfan View Post

    Using the same theory, it's OK to tell people who have never seen a lion that it's a leopard-lion?


    you have it totally wrong...it's a Liger...
    -Bob

  2. #62
    DEEPER STRIATIONS markie's Avatar
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    Ordering a very expensive PS Guitar & paying for it before you play it................... This just might be tiptoeing over the "Collector" line Les


    I think we can work with this guy
    Fanboy of the Jester (AKA) James (Previously known as 11top)

  3. #63
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    Les....you are my friend. I would say this to your face if we were in close proximity. I say this without ANY implied disrespect.

    I don't believe you have ever argued against a PRS related marketing strategy. You have always rallied to their support. In truth, this thread developed following the original premise on VR forum...the 2nd generation PB marketing did not make it clear as to the differences between it and first generation. Similar to the ME-2 and the "select dahlbergia". To be honest, my ME-2 dealer actually told me it was BRW when I bought it. That didn't change my opinion of the quality, nor did it devalue it's inherent musical capacity. It just told me that I had paid BRW prices for the equivalent of IRW.

    In this situation, the original marketing may have implied "a variant of Pernambuco" but it was never ORIGINALLY clarified that it was from a different strain.

    Les...you are a very intelligent man, and a great music producer. I am sure that in your attorney life, you excelled.

    It's just that you can't seem to get the premise out of your head that you are on paid retainer to defend teh PRS company. Truth in disclosure...have you ever asked the company to be their corporate counsel? Because I will disclose that I've posted several times publically that I would work for free if they opened a "pre-owned profit center" as long as my "salary" was a portion of the profits. I am subjective in many areas...as are you. It's just that I have NEVER seen you fail to defend PRS...and to me, that loses some credibility since I've never seen you debate the other side of the coin.

    In this case...I believe that PRS engaged in deceptive marketing. Does that diminish the company to me? Not really. I am just disappointed in how they market. They change specs so often, and make totally minor "tweaks" so often, I sometimes whether its designed just to create the illusion of progress under Pauls' mythological "Rules of Tone".

    Now Les...do you truly believe in all of Paul's Rules of Tone? Do you accept it, the way Moses accepted those 15 (oops, I broke one) I mean 10 commandments? Because the company has left itself open to extremely damaging criticism that I believe is well founded, despite my continued endorsement of the quality of their products.

    and by the way...with my Picasso analogy...it's not "comparing the paint"....read the analogy again...the paint may be different, but that is irrelevant to the argument. It's the issue of WHICH artist put paint to canvas. The analogy is relatively valid when you consider "what am I buying" vs. "what is being represented".

    I still love the guitars and support the company. But I will be damned if I will defend a position I disagree with. I may be an expert witness, but I will not accept a case in which I KNOW that I am merely being used to obfuscate the obvious evidence and produce an element of doubt when there should be none.

    Thanks for allowing me this bully pulpit to spew my opinions from.

  4. #64
    I was hot for a PS Paul's Guitar when I heard (through the grape-vine) that it would have a Pernambuco neck and black Brazilian Rosewood fretboard.

    Now that the specs have been released and I can see that the neck wood is not the traditionally used Pernambuco from Brazil, I no longer want one.

    I have enough guitars to last many lifetimes. I was in it for the wood. If that makes me a chump, so be it.

    In the future, I hope we (the Official PRS Guitars Forum) are able to get new model info (with detailed specs) at the same time as the dealers so there are no more misunderstandings.
    One Life

  5. #65
    CLIMBING VINTAGE PRS MT.
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    just a thought........without collectors is PRS still in business today?

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by markie View Post
    Ordering a very expensive PS Guitar & paying for it before you play it................... This just might be tiptoeing over the "Collector" line Les


    I think we can work with this guy
    Haha! You are right about that. Perhaps I have more collector potential than I'm willing to admit!

    But it was the only way to get a maple Tonare! I like the way a maple small jumbo sits in a mix.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Dirty Bob's Avatar
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    Again the Debate is about whether or not a product is being misrepresented.

    On a side note...I did find myself wondering as I reread this thread what the actual difference in cost per neck blank is wholesale? Again the Ron Thorn post over on the Thorn Forums was very enlightening when summing up the parts versus what most builders/luthiers charge.

    I also wonder what the difference of hours worked/labor that goes into a private stock versus production?
    -Bob

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by guitarsong View Post
    just a thought........without collectors is PRS still in business today?
    That's actually a REALLY good question!! I think they would, but they would have had an even tougher time surviving 2008 through what continues to appear to be a recession. I believe that PRSh has stated that staying afloat was really hard during 2008-2010. I think PRS would have survived without collectors, because at the heart of it all, his guitars are and have always been marketed as TOOLS FOR PLAYERS. My opinion is that there are more players out there than collectors. Not sure though... just a guess. And not all players can even afford a production PRSi, let alone PS or even Collection instruments.

    I think they would still be in biz, but might have had to make some changes to survive through the really lean times. I know that they made some changes that helped- like Wood Library runs- but I would guess that they might not look quite the same as they do now- for better or worse.

    Good question man! What do you guys think?
    Last edited by martysnarf; 02-21-2013 at 02:39 PM.
    "You come around here with these... SOUL DESTROYERS... clad in some kinda paisley rittenou... I don't even know what rittenou means." -Greg Koch re: PRS amps

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyMoonsRJT View Post
    Again the Debate is about whether or not a product is being misrepresented.
    By whom (the grape-vine or the spec sheet)?
    One Life

  10. #70
    Senior Member Dirty Bob's Avatar
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    the grapevine...I stated that so nobody accused me of derailing the thread any more than it already has been.

    Shawn gave a clear answer in his first post.

    It was the next post I think that got some individuals fired up.
    Last edited by Dirty Bob; 02-21-2013 at 02:40 PM.
    -Bob

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twinfan View Post
    Many thanks for the clarification, Shawn.

    So chaltecoco is NOT pernambuco. Adding it to the name does not make it so.

    Here is the problem for me. Is Chaltecoco commonly called Pernambuco? If so, no problems! Or is PRS is just calling it that to make a connection to "actual" Pernambuco ?(The stuff advertised as being "bow" material, to which I say, who cares anyway? I do not play my guitar with a bow. ) If thats the case, then I feel there is trickery going on, which is not cool. IMO, YMMV and all of that! Oh yea, if they sold the newer wood in the past to people who were told they were getting the older plain Pern., then thats a bigger problem. I am lost as to what is actually going on however!

  12. #72
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    All of this really doesn't matter when you consider a funny little lady that is best known for saying "coochie-coochie" can kick all of our asses on the guitar and look good doing it.
    You're never too old for tater tots.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by docbennett View Post
    Les....you are my friend. I would say this to your face if we were in close proximity. I say this without ANY implied disrespect.

    I don't believe you have ever argued against a PRS related marketing strategy. You have always rallied to their support.
    That is true, you have only seen me defend PRS. Want to know why?

    When I disagree with a PRS marketing strategy, or have an issue with a product, I keep it to myself or handle it privately with PRS. Why? I admire PRS the person and the company, and believe that any issue I might have can easily be handled privately. When I agree with them, or think they're being unfairly criticized, I say so.

    As to the suggestion in your post that I'm somehow interested in their business, I don't practice any law at all except for my own company, and a couple of folks I have longstanding friendships with, such as my publisher here in Michigan. Even then, that is limited to entertainment law.

    I turn away other potential clients. And believe me, I get plenty of calls I turn away. I'm not remotely interested in PRS' legal business, or any legal business for that matter, that I'm not already stuck with.

    Quote Originally Posted by docbennett View Post
    Now Les...do you truly believe in all of Paul's Rules of Tone??
    Yes, I think Paul is correct. Before I read anything about his Rules of Tone, and his argument about guitar making involving subtractive processes, I posted my opinion that guitarmaking reminded me of subtractive synthesis, and that the materials and hardware act as filters in various ways, just as the filters on a Moog synthesizer work to change timbre, attack, decay, sustain, etc.

    And playing the instruments, as they've gotten better and better over the years has convinced me even more that he's onto something.

    If you don't believe it, that's your prerogative, but why on earth do you participate in a PRS forum that's all about these guitars?

    Quote Originally Posted by docbennett View Post
    Because the company has left itself open to extremely damaging criticism that I believe is well founded, despite my continued endorsement of the quality of their products.
    Nonsense.

    And I would say the same to your face. Despite that I think you're wrong, I still love you, though.

    Since you're an endorser of their products, of course I'm now waiting for your Artist model, when can we expect it?
    Last edited by LSchefman; 02-21-2013 at 04:15 PM.

  14. #74
    Senior Member Dirty Bob's Avatar
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    Since Murali vanished have Markie's bunny slippers increased in value?





    ok now I'm derailing...accuse away.
    -Bob

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by hippietim View Post
    All of this really doesn't matter when you consider a funny little lady that is best known for saying "coochie-coochie" can kick all of our asses on the guitar and look good doing it.
    She is awesome!

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSchefman View Post
    If you don't believe it, that's your prerogative, but why on earth do you participate in a PRS forum that's all about these guitars?
    Ya know, I guess I sometimes enjoy the debate itself, more than the initial controversy causing it. And I appreciate your other comments, but will selectively reply to the one above......

    I love the guitars...I love the product....I think the company is superior to other guitar manufacturers in several ways.

    That being said...I love my children dearly, and continue to do so, now that they've grown, moved out, gotten married, had children of their own, yada yada yada.

    However....I never held back with regard to disciplining them when they were growing up..and I never defended them when I knew they were wrong. However they knew they could always (and still can) rely on me to support them regardless, and to love them despite whether I agreed with them or not.

    Maybe that was just another dumb analogy...but I stay with the forum because I care for the product....ALMOST as much as I care about the camaraderie I've developed among the various members whom I otherwise would never have met or become familiar with.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippietim View Post
    All of this really doesn't matter when you consider a funny little lady that is best known for saying "coochie-coochie" can kick all of our asses on the guitar and look good doing it.
    I am assuming you are referring to Mrs. Xavier Cugat.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by docbennett View Post

    .I love my children dearly, and continue to do so, now that they've grown, moved out, gotten married, had children of their own, yada yada yada.

    However....I never held back with regard to disciplining them when they were growing up..and I never defended them when I knew they were wrong. However they knew they could always (and still can) rely on me to support them regardless, and to love them despite whether I agreed with them or not.
    You are a good man Bennett.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tag View Post
    You are a good man Bennett.
    Thanks very much Tag....but I would be anything that Les gets PM's stating the contrary.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by docbennett View Post
    Thanks very much Tag....but I would be anything that Les gets PM's stating the contrary.
    Very few people ever PM me. Mostly it's people responding to my PM'd apologies for pissing them off, since I often open mouth, insert foot.

    I'm pretty sure I've never gotten a PM criticizing you, or anyone really, except I've gotten a few criticizing me, and that's to be expected.

    In retrospect got carried away criticizing collectors, and for that, I take responsibility. Most of that was meant as sarcasm, but it was unnecessary on my part. I let my emotions play out sometimes, and that's never a good thing.

    Collectors, I hereby apologize. I was being unfair in that regard. But I still disagree about the complaints against PRS here.

    You know, I recall with the MEII that they pointed out it was "select dalbergia" and not BRW, specifically. The fact that your dealer was in error isn't their fault. Really.

    I do think the whole sinker mahogany thing was a tempest in a teapot, and the guitar represents superb value in any case.

    And I think they're being upfront about the nature of this Paul's guitar wood.

    PRS doesn't need me to defend them. So I'm going to STFU now.
    Last edited by LSchefman; 02-21-2013 at 04:18 PM.

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