Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 28 of 28

Thread: Small Victory with learning to play today...

  1. #21
    Notice the notes in B phrygian? .....
    Its in the key of G Major!
    See E minor? Guess what
    G Major again !!
    Isnt theory wonderful ?
    Learn all the major scale positions and you're golden
    Then minor and dominant and augmented and diminished

    Best thread ever !

    Quote Originally Posted by Em7 View Post
    I like the CAGED system; however, I have found that it often leaves guitarists with more questions than answers. It's kind of akin to teaching caclulus before teaching algebra and basic arithmetic. Anyone who has taken calculus knows that calculus is a fairly straight forward. What makes calculus difficult are the algebraic manipulations that one must perform in order to apply the rules.

    A major flaw that I see with the CAGED system is that it does not really address minor chords and modes, which are the backbone of rock and blues. While we can go through the exercise of mapping the open chord shapes for Cm, Am, Gm, Em, and Dm to the neck, it is a painfully slow way to gain real insight into how notes and chords are laid out on a guitar, and it doesn't teach us a thing about re-voicing chords.

    I have lost count of the number of people who I have met that are reasonably good guitarists who do not instantly recognize that the progression Em, Am, Bm is the relative minor 1, 4, 5 chord progression for the major 1, 4, 5 chord progression G. C, and D. These two progressions occur in rock more often than any other progression (the chords are often tuned down half a step to Ebm, Abm, Bbm, and Gb, Cb, Db). The CAGED system does not address this problem, which is why it is akin to attempting to teach calculus before teaching algebra and basic arithmetic.

    Let's apply the information given for the key of Bm/D to the key of Em/G. Applying the three frets down the from the major key root note technique that I outlined above to the key of G yields the note E, which means that E minor (a.k.a. Em) is the relative minor key of G major (a.k.a. G). As the relative minor/major pattern shown above is mappable to any key, all we need to do is to move the pattern such that the first note in the pattern on string number 6 is the root note of the relative minor key. The note E appears in two places on string 6 on a 22-fret guitar and three places on a 24-fret guitar (the pattern spans six frets; therefore, we can only map it to two different places on a 24-fret neck). The first E note is the string played open. The second E note is fretted at the 12th fret; therefore, we can play the natural minor/relative major pattern between the nut and the 5th fret and the 12th and the 17th fret in the key of Em/G.

    E natural minor



    G major



    Let's add a new mode and pattern to the mix that allows one to really pump out notes once mastered. Five frets down from the relative minor root note or four frets up from the relative major root note lies the root for a related scale known as Phrygian mode. Phrygian mode is also a minor mode. In our case, we are going to look at B Phrygian because B Phrygian contains the same notes as E minor and G major. The pattern that I use for B Phrygian can also be played in two different places on the neck; namely, between the 7th and 12th frets and the 19th and the 24th frets (one must own a 24 fret guitar to play the extended portion of B Phyrgian). The Phrygian pattern can be looked at as the natural minor pattern with a lowered 2nd scale degree. Lowering the 2nd makes the pattern tidy because one can play two full octaves using four fingers without have to slide or reach for the 2nd.

    B Phrygian




    Hopefully, forum members have noticed that we cover almost the entire fingerboard of using just two slightly different patterns. These two patterns are relatively easy to commit to muscle memory, which is what one has to do in order to play with any kind of speed.

    One last thing: people who are following this thread should try playing the B Phrygian pattern from B to B (note number 1 in the Phrygian pattern) over an Em, D, C, Bm (or B7) progression. One will quickly learn why Phrygian mode is really cool. It is the mode that Al DiMeola uses extensively (the chord progression is basically the major strummed sequence in the song "Mediterranean Sundance"). Phrygian mode is often called the Flamenco scale. The key here is to play the chord progression with a Flamenco feel while ensuring that the B notes in the scale are played against the Em chord.
    Last edited by prscat33511; 04-27-2013 at 06:48 PM. Reason: My computer cant spell

  2. #22
    Sorry Em7, didnt quite read all of your text
    I just looked at the fretboard diagrams
    Please continue

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Em7 View Post

    D contains the following scale degrees:
    root note: D, scale degree #1
    minor third interval: F#, scale degree #3
    perfect fifth interval: A, scale degree #5

    G contains the following scale degrees:
    root note: G, scale degree #4
    minor third interval: B, scale degree #6
    perfect fifth interval: D, scale degree #1

    A contains the following scale degrees:
    root note: A, scale degree #5
    minor third interval: C#, scale degree #7
    perfect fifth interval: E, scale degree #2
    While I certainly appreciate your knowledge of theory, the intervals D to F#, G to B and A to C# are Major thirds.


    Quote Originally Posted by Em7 View Post

    In the case where a song is written in a major key, one can get away with improvising in the parallel minor key using the minor pentatonic scale (e.g., Bm pentatonic over a B major progression) as long as one is careful with the notes numbered 3 and 7. These notes are one half step up in frequency in the major scale (see below). Not adjusting for this difference is one of the most common mistakes that beginning lead guitarists make when improvising using a parallel minor pentatonic scale over a major chord progression. These notes stick out like sore thumbs because they make the soloist sound like he/she is out of key.
    I'll generally agree with this statement if it's a pretty chord progression, in diatonic harmony with Maj7 chords. Many jazz players will use these notes as passing tones effectively.
    In the case of Dom7 chords, the blues, jazz, funk, rock etc, the clash of the minor 3rd with the Major 3rd in a Dom7 chord is typical tension that begs to be released.
    Call it one of the blue notes, it is an effective and highly useful tool when used properly. Most of rock, blues etc. does not follow diatonic harmony. A lot of jazz does but frequently modulates into different keys.

  4. #24
    deus ex machina
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    388
    Quote Originally Posted by prscat33511 View Post
    OR we could say that it was B Dorian in the key of A Major
    Actually, B Dorian does not contain the same notes as B natural minor (a.k.a. B Aeolian). Aeolian mode has flatten 3rd, 6th, and 7th intervals compared to the major scale (a.k.a Ionian Mode). Dorian mode only has flattened 3rd and 7th intervals compared to the major scale. The difference can easily be seen by looking at the Aeolian and Dorian mode interval patterns.

    Natural Minor (Aeolian Mode) Interval Pattern

    WHWWHWW

    Dorian Mode Interval Pattern

    WHWWWHW


    The notes in B natural minor are B, C#, D, E, F#, G, and A. The notes in B Dorian are B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, and A. B Dorian has G# (major 6th) instead of G (minor sixth). As one can clearly see in the diagram below, , Dorian mode is basically Aeolian mode with a raised 6th.

    B Dorian


  5. #25
    Not contesting or arguing, so
    Here's how I look at things:

    B aeolian = D major
    B dorian = A major
    B phrygian = G major

  6. #26
    deus ex machina
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    388
    Quote Originally Posted by t.shamone View Post
    While I certainly appreciate your knowledge of theory, the intervals D to F#, G to B and A to C# are Major thirds.
    Actually, that error is the result of trying to be efficient. Composing long posts is a lot of work; therefore, I tend cut, paste, and modify text from previous posts where possible (the text was cut from the posting in which I outlined the 1, 4, and 5 chords in the key of Bm). I changed the chord names and notes, but did not change the interval distance for the 3rd. I made the same kind of error on one of my drawings because I am modifying a base drawing to save time. I do my best to proofread my postings, but it is difficult to compose a large error-free posting using the forum software.

    I'll generally agree with this statement if it's a pretty chord progression, in diatonic harmony with Maj7 chords. Many jazz players will use these notes as passing tones effectively.
    In the case of Dom7 chords, the blues, jazz, funk, rock etc, the clash of the minor 3rd with the Major 3rd in a Dom7 chord is typical tension that begs to be released.
    Call it one of the blue notes, it is an effective and highly useful tool when used properly. Most of rock, blues etc. does not follow diatonic harmony. A lot of jazz does but frequently modulates into different keys.
    The problem with promoting the use of minor thirds in place major thirds is that one has to know what one is doing. Playing a minor third against a dominant seventh chord is nothing like passing through the #4th/b5th note in the blues scale. The #4th/b5th blue note in the blues scale is usually played chromatically with the perfect 4th and perfect 5th notes (often during the turn around). The minor third is out there by itself in the minor pentatonic scale, and the minor third tends be an anchor or landing point in many common pentatonic phrases. These phrases work with a minor progression, but tend to sound like garage rock when played against a dominant seventh progression.

    A lot of things work in Jazz, but Jazz is an entirely different subject. A lot of jazz also lacks melody, especially jazz written since the introduction of Bebop. The goal of chord tone soloing is to produce a melody line around the notes in the chords.
    Last edited by Em7; 04-29-2013 at 10:41 AM.

  7. #27
    I understand the perils of cut and paste and with your knowledge, I knew it was a simple mistake.
    I just wanted to point it out so people would get the correct information.

    You are free to voice your opinions although I may not agree with them.

  8. #28
    deus ex machina
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    388
    Quote Originally Posted by prscat33511 View Post
    Not contesting or arguing, so
    Here's how I look at things:

    B aeolian = D major
    B dorian = A major
    B phrygian = G major
    Or simply when compared to the major scale (Ionian mode),

    Starting on the 2nd scale degree and playing to the 2nd scale degree one octave up or down is Dorian mode.

    Starting on the 3rd scale degree and playing to the 3rd scale degree one octave up or down is Phrygian mode.

    Starting on the 4th scale degree and playing to the 4th scale degree one octave up or down is Lydian mode.

    Starting on the 5th scale degree and playing to the 5th scale degree one octave up or down is Mixolydian mode.

    Starting on the 6th scale degree and playing to the 6th scale degree one octave up or down is Aeolian mode.

    Starting on the 7th scale degree and playing to the 7th scale degree one octave up or down is Locrian mode.

    For example, if we want to discover the name of the major scale in which B Lydian appears, all we need to do is look for the scale in which B is the fourth note. We know that the scale is going to be an F scale because the fourth note letter when counting from F is B ( F, G, A, B). We also know that the fourth note in the major scale is a perfect 4th, which is five half steps up from the root. The note five half steps (frets on a guitar) down from B is F#; therefore, B Lydian appears in the key of F# major.

    If we want to find the notes in B Lydian without having to look them up (or God forbid, memorize them, which is not going to happen at my age), all we need to do is to remember the interval spacing pattern for the major scale (Ionian mode) and know how to rotate the pattern to make the scale degree (note number) of the mode the root note of the pattern. For example, as mentioned above, the interval spacing between notes in the major scale follows the pattern WWHWWWH, where the letter W denotes a whole step between notes and the the letter H denotes a half step between notes (one needs to commit this pattern to memory). The first W in the pattern is the distance from the root note to the 2nd note in the scale; therefore, in order to rotate the pattern such that the 2nd note is now the root note, we remove the first W from the beginning of the pattern and append it to the end of the pattern. Effectively, we remove the note number minus one characters from the beginning of the pattern and append them to the end of the pattern (circular shift n - 1 characters).

    Code:
    Deriving the pattern for Lyndian mode from the pattern for the major scale (Ionian mode)
    
    Step 1.) The pattern for the major scale is WWHWWWH.
    Step 2.) Lyndian mode is the 4th scale degree (note number) in the major scale;  therefore, we remove 4 - 1 = 3 letters from the beginning of the pattern, leaving WWWH.
    Step 3.) We append the characters that we removed in step 2 (WWH) to the end of the remaining pattern (WWWH) from step 2, yielding the pattern WWWHWWH. 
    
    The interval pattern for Lydian mode is WWWHWWH.
    
    Applying the pattern for Lydian mode to B Chromatic yields B Lydian.
    
    B, C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, B
          W      W      W  H      W      W   H   
    
    The notes in B Lydian are B, C#, D#, F, F#, G#, and A#.
    However, there is a problem with this scale as it stands. All scale degrees have to have a unique letter; therefore, we have to resort to an using enharmonic equivalent name for one of the F notes. Enharmonic equivalent note names are different names for the same note. The note letter missing in the scale is E; therefore, we need an E note in the scale. The enharmonic equivalent note name for F is E#; therefore, B Lydian is B, C#, D#, E#, F#, G#, and A#.


    If we look at the key signature for F# major, we discover that there are six sharps on the treble staff (none of which fall on the B line), which means that we have identified the correct notes in B Lydian because B is the 4th note in the key of F#.

    Last edited by Em7; 04-29-2013 at 10:48 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •