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Thread: Next PRS amp metal?

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by vchizzle View Post
    I don't know Les, there's some pretty great low watt heads out there that do metal quite well. Now I don't 100% disagree with your statement - I love it loud and proud and prefer a 4x12 for almost everything. But again, there's some great sounding low watters out there that can tear it up and be pretty heavy sounding.
    I'm an open minded guy, and haven't heard everything. I will defer to your judgment.

    You know what I'm saying about that tight, piano-like low end thing, where it has weight and authority, but still allows you to hear the bass and kick drum? As opposed to a low end that competes with the bass and kick because it's not as well defined?

    I think that's what a 100 watt amp with a big iron transformer gives you. But...I can be convinced. Someone just needs to point me in the right direction.
    I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken...

    Website: http://www.elfxi.com

  2. #22
    Senior Member sergiodeblanc's Avatar
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    Make an amp that sounds exactly like this:




    Make it with an "Ebony" stained front panel with a ME/25th relief that shows off the glowing tubes.


    Make every metal dude in the world to need to have one.

  3. #23

  4. #24
    Senior Member 11top's Avatar
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    In that YouTube video in the OP, I'm surprised Paul and Mike weren't blown out of the room. While demoing the gain channel, the gain knob was at 2 o'clock and so was the master knob. I use the 50 watt version with a Boogie 2x12 vertical cab, and in rehearsal I have the gain at noon and the master at 9 o'clock, and it is loud! The only thing I can figure is maybe they had the guitar volume knob cranked down (which would surprise me due to tone limitations) or maybe it was really loud.
    Sh*tter's full

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  6. #26
    deus ex machina
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    As I have mentioned in the past, tube technology and spouse-friendly home sound pressure levels are mutually exclusive. A 5W amp is roughly half as loud as a 50W amp. The human ear responds to sound intensity on a logarithmic scale. It takes a 9dB reduction in sound pressure to equal a 50% reduction in perceived volume. Reducing output power by 50% results in a 3dB reduction in sound pressure; therefore, a 9dB reduction in sound pressure requires us to reduce power by a factor of 8 (23). In order to achieve a perceived volume level that is 1/4 the level produced by a 50W amp, we need to reduce sound pressure by 18dB (a 26 reduction in power); therefore, a 3/4W amp is 1/4th as loud as a 50W amp (50 / 64 = 0.78125).

    If one examines the Blackstar HT-5 schematic closely, one notices that better than 90% of the amp's tone is generated by solid-state circuitry (the HT-5 is just an improved Marshall Valvestate amp). Basically, if one wants big overdriven tube tone in a home-friendly package, one has to emulate it using solid-state circuitry (or digital modeling) and linear amplify the output. Doug and his team are currently not staffed to design and build solid-state amps, which would mean having to outsource engineering and production.
    Last edited by Em7; 07-22-2013 at 04:50 PM.

  7. #27
    Senior Member 11top's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoreyT View Post
    I bet it was loud.
    When I saw Paul at the local Meet & Greet awhile back, he had the amp turned way up, it was VERY LOUD
    Eric Cummins and I were in that demo room in the video a year ago, and Paul had a 100 watt head on top of a 4x12 cab. Paul turned it to 10 (cause there wasn't an 11), and we all went into the next room and closed the door to listen to it. I think he likes it loud (to show off the tone).
    Sh*tter's full

  8. #28
    PRS Addiction CoreyT's Avatar
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    I am very happy with just the HT5 I have now, and I will be sticking with it.
    It has tons of nice gain, and I like it also because you do not have to have it turned up loud, as it is designed to give you the same sound no matter what volume.
    That must be what they mean by push/pull design, not sure.

    Anyways, Sweetwater just put up a video of the metal one too, but it is the 100 watt one, not the 5 watt one.



    And if you can get past my crappy noodling, here is the HT5 and my 408 I recorded two Sundays ago.
    Gain was maxed out or up 3/4, and I think I had the reverb all the way up.
    Next time I am dropping the reverb.

    https://soundcloud.com/coreytan/mastr001-wav

  9. #29
    deus ex machina
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoreyT View Post
    I am very happy with just the HT5 I have now, and I will be sticking with it.
    It has tons of nice gain, and I like it also because you do not have to have it turned up loud, as it is designed to give you the same sound no matter what volume.
    That's because the HT-5 is basically a solid-state tube amp emulator. The 12AX7 (a.k.a. ECC83) adds some tube color, but the tone generating circuitry is primarily solid-state. The 12BH7 is configured as a fixed-bias push-pull linear power stage (a linear stage is one that takes a signal and makes an exact copy of it N times larger, where N is the amplification factor).

    That must be what they mean by push/pull design, not sure.
    Push-pull is an amplifier topology. A push-pull amp can be configured to operate in more classes than a singled-ended amp like a Fender Champ. A singled-ended guitar amp has to be biased to operate in class A. A push-pull tube guitar amp can be biased to operate in class A, class AB, or class B.

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  11. #31
    Senior Member vchizzle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSchefman View Post
    I'm an open minded guy, and haven't heard everything. I will defer to your judgment.

    You know what I'm saying about that tight, piano-like low end thing, where it has weight and authority, but still allows you to hear the bass and kick drum? As opposed to a low end that competes with the bass and kick because it's not as well defined?

    I think that's what a 100 watt amp with a big iron transformer gives you. But...I can be convinced. Someone just needs to point me in the right direction.
    You are correct, but there are several smaller amps that do really well in this style that are low wattage. I won't fill this thread with non-PRS info though. I'm not saying that any of these amps are the same as a high wattage metal style amp, but for a person who primarily plays at home at limited volume, they do a pretty damn good job and IMO better than modellers(though those can be fun as well). Not everyone has the privilege of being able to crank a big amp. Some of these amp can fill a certain void for those people and do it pretty well.

  12. #32
    Junior Member The Newby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
    I would be really interested in one, but another I am looking at has a built in attenuator and recording output. I'm holding out to see what, if anything, comes out but I fear I might not be the market they aim for. That sucks because I really would prefer to stick with PRS.
    Im with you there. I like PRS but they are not really a metal guitar company.

  13. #33

  14. #34
    NJ Devil DISTORT6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Newby View Post
    Im with you there. I like PRS but they are not really a metal guitar company.
    Oh no! I got sell them ALL...
    Not like the other kids...

  15. #35
    Senior Member jfb's Avatar
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    The tone is there when I hear other's play the PRS H or Custom, but when I play it I can't detach from the feel, which I don't seem to get along with at all, enough to really hear the amp. They feel a bit too slinky and slow to respond to me. I am talking high gain tones only.
    Plank Owner

  16. #36
    deus ex machina
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    Quote Originally Posted by jfb View Post
    The tone is there when I hear other's play the PRS H or Custom, but when I play it I can't detach from the feel, which I don't seem to get along with at all, enough to really hear the amp. They feel a bit too slinky and slow to respond to me. I am talking high gain tones only.
    That's why I believe that solid-state is a better technology base for metal tones. Unlike blues-rock tones that benefit from circuits with slower slew rates, fast, fluid metal demands circuits with high slew rates. Slew rate is the rate at which the output voltage of a circuit can change with respect to time. It is easier to achieve high slew rates with solid-state technology than it is with tube technology.

    If we go back to the point in the eighties where old-style metal distortion was reaching its peak, we discover that most of the new super high-gain circuits were solid-state (ADA was pioneer in the super high-gain world with MP-1). R&D would have continued on these circuits had it not been for the fall of the Berlin Wall. Solid-state guitar amp research and design was driven by the fact that tube production had ceased in the United States and Western Europe. The fall of the Berlin Wall opened up the former Soviet Bloc tube companies to the world (the Soviets continued to work with tube technology long after we abandoned it), which, in turn, spawned a "back to the future" renaissance in guitar and audio tube amp design. Old tones became cool again, high-gain amp research took a back seat to vintage tube amp circuit derivations, and solid-state became a dirty word again.

    Listen to how fast the ADA MP-1 responds to Nuno's picking on "Get The Funk Out" (the guitar work on this song is off the charts):

    Last edited by Em7; 07-24-2013 at 09:01 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Em7 View Post
    That's why I believe that solid-state is a better technology base for metal tones. Unlike blues-rock tones that benefit from circuits with slower slew rates, fast, fluid metal demands circuits with high slew rates. Slew rate is the rate at which the output voltage of a circuit can change with respect to time. It is easier to achieve high slew rates with solid-state technology than it is with tube technology.

    If we go back to the point in the eighties where old-style metal distortion was reaching its peak, we discover that most of the new super high-gain circuits were solid-state (ADA was pioneer in the super high-gain world with MP-1). R&D would have continued on these circuits had it not been for the fall of the Berlin Wall. Solid-state guitar amp research and design was driven by the fact that tube production had ceased in the United States and Western Europe. The fall of the Berlin Wall opened up the former Soviet Bloc tube companies to the world (the Soviets continued to work with tube technology long after we abandoned it), which, in turn, spawned a "back to the future" renaissance in guitar and audio tube amp design. Old tones became cool again, high-gain amp research took a back seat to vintage tube amp circuit derivations, and solid-state became a dirty word again.

    Listen to how fast the ADA MP-1 responds to Nuno's picking on "Get The Funk Out" (the guitar work on this song is off the charts):

    I'd agree with you about how "fast" a solid state amp can feel, but a well designed tube circuit can do very nice things (as you know) and maybe sound a little better than a solid state amp in terms of its distortion and texture.

    It can also do different kinds of dynamics (maybe a good thing, maybe not so much, depending on the player).

    I realize of course that this stuff can be debated endlessly; still, as a guy who spends a lot of time behind the console, I'd prefer to record a tube amp.
    I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken...

    Website: http://www.elfxi.com

  18. #38
    deus ex machina
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSchefman View Post
    I'd agree with you about how "fast" a solid state amp can feel, but a well designed tube circuit can do very nice things (as you know) and maybe sound a little better than a solid state amp in terms of its distortion and texture.
    Unlike blues-rock and other traditional electric guitar tones, high-gain metal tones and solid-state technology go hand-in-hand because high-gain metal tones are highly-processed tones. The ADA MP-1 was the most heavily used high-gain preamp in the eighties for a simple reason, it's darn near impossible to achieve that much signal gain and compression using tube technology. The signal-to-noise ratio would be too low. It's also difficult to keep a tube amp with more than four or five series connected gain stages from oscillating out of control.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Em7 View Post
    Unlike blues-rock and other traditional electric guitar tones, high-gain metal tones and solid-state technology go hand-in-hand because high-gain metal tones are highly-processed tones. The ADA MP-1 was the most heavily used high-gain preamp in the eighties for a simple reason, it's darn near impossible to achieve that much signal gain and compression using tube technology. The signal-to-noise ratio would be too low. It's also difficult to keep a tube amp with more than four or five series connected gain stages from oscillating out of control.
    And yet, a lot of the metal guys use tube amps. Some add a pedal.
    I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken...

    Website: http://www.elfxi.com

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Em7 View Post
    As I have mentioned in the past, tube technology and spouse-friendly home sound pressure levels are mutually exclusive. A 5W amp is roughly half as loud as a 50W amp. The human ear responds to sound intensity on a logarithmic scale. It takes a 9dB reduction in sound pressure to equal a 50% reduction in perceived volume. Reducing output power by 50% results in a 3dB reduction in sound pressure; therefore, a 9dB reduction in sound pressure requires us to reduce power by a factor of 8 (23). In order to achieve a perceived volume level that is 1/4 the level produced by a 50W amp, we need to reduce sound pressure by 18dB (a 26 reduction in power); therefore, a 3/4W amp is 1/4th as loud as a 50W amp (50 / 64 = 0.78125).

    If one examines the Blackstar HT-5 schematic closely, one notices that better than 90% of the amp's tone is generated by solid-state circuitry (the HT-5 is just an improved Marshall Valvestate amp). Basically, if one wants big overdriven tube tone in a home-friendly package, one has to emulate it using solid-state circuitry (or digital modeling) and linear amplify the output. Doug and his team are currently not staffed to design and build solid-state amps, which would mean having to outsource engineering and production.
    I have to strongly disagree. Marshall just did it with the JVM 1 watt anniversary amps. I have one. 5 tubes in this little box. There isn't a schematic available and to my knowledge no one has dissected one but this has to be 100% tube overdrive or darn close to it. There is more gain in this thing than a recto or mark....and it can be powered down to .1 watt. It can be played at 2am and won't wake a soul, without losing any character or drive.

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