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Thread: PRS Amp School - The Search for Tube Tone Knowledge

  1. #21
    Name Manglin' Putz alantig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rugerpc View Post
    How did I miss this thread?

    And where's that Colbert/popcorn gif when I need it?
    Alan

    "I watched approximately 45 seconds of 'Rock Of Ages'. It was like getting punched in the soul." - Abby Krizner

  2. #22
    A♥ hoards guitars ♥A rugerpc's Avatar
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    Thank you Alan!
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    Gork what your need to gork.
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  3. #23
    You guys are forcing me to take another look at at Klon.

    I'm clearly going to have to borrow my friend's original and see how it works with my gear. Then I can wrestle with the whole "Should I get a klone or wait for Bill Finnegan to get his act together?" issue.
    I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken...

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  4. #24
    SuperD Boogie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSchefman View Post
    ...I can wrestle with the whole "Should I get a klone or wait for Bill Finnegan to get his act together?" issue.
    Life is too short. Bill doing something truly for the masses is yet to be seen, plus there's too much money in keeping things "exclusive". More so, the market will soak up everything he makes just to make a buck. That's why I searched for a good clone. There are tons out there and it was a tough decision. But so far, it appears that I chose wisely (according to Mrs. B, that may be a first). It may not mix well will all PRS amps (I can't vouch for that one way or the other) but it does in my situation.
    + '01 Custom 24 + '11 DGT Standard (Mr. Clean) + '09 SE One + Super Dallas + Stealth 2x12+

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Boogie View Post
    Life is too short. Bill doing something truly for the masses is yet to be seen, plus there's too much money in keeping things "exclusive". More so, the market will soak up everything he makes just to make a buck. That's why I searched for a good clone. There are tons out there and it was a tough decision. But so far, it appears that I chose wisely (according to Mrs. B, that may be a first). It may not mix well will all PRS amps (I can't vouch for that one way or the other) but it does in my situation.
    Based on my limited experience with Klons, I think it should work well with the DG30 at the very least.

    The thing about Finnegan's situation: all the money eBayers and cloners made off the design, he didn't see a penny of. He never made much money with the Klons over the years. There were only about 8000 ever made over a 15 year period. That's not very many, and there were materials costs, etc. The castings alone ate up a lot of coin for him.

    More Boss pedals than that fall off the truck every week.

    So I actually feel for the guy. He built a better mousetrap and didn't really know what to do with it. I would like to see him profit for his work. Some guys never really do very well, despite their technical ability, because they simply aren't very good at business.

    So if it's at all possible, I'd like to buy a new product that he makes and do what I can to help him succeed with it financially.
    Last edited by LSchefman; 03-16-2014 at 12:34 PM.
    I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken...

    Website: http://www.elfxi.com

  6. #26
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    Neat topic... Sounds like Boogie's rig is epic.

    My definition of "Grissom tone" isn't based on anything in particular. I have only heard him live (keep meaning to get around to checking out his studio work...) To me, the PRS rig that gets closest to what I identify with his tone is the 50W MDT. Set with the master dimed, the volume set low-ish so that there is just the hint of breakup at full guitar output. Add a clean boost, a phase and delay effect, and an overdrive (all up front) and it's great. I head Grissom playing the DG30 live at Experience and it nailed his tone also of course. But there actually seems to be a narrower range of settings that get it (to me) on the DG30 than the MDT...and like you guys, I don't actually have a desire to nail his tone, and that's not why I like the DG30 anyway.

    Coincidentally, I happened to gig out a DRRI head (they actually do make head versions...) with a pedal board last night and when I hit the delay and my Exotic BB I immediately was reminded of Grissom tone...so there are lots of ways to get there I guess... Didn't hurt that I was playing his sig guitar...


  7. #27
    SuperD Boogie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSchefman View Post
    So I actually feel for the guy. He built a better mousetrap and didn't really know what to do with it. I would like to see him profit for his work. Some guys never really do very well, despite their technical ability, because they simply aren't very good at business.

    So if it's at all possible, I'd like to buy a new product that he makes and do what I can to help him succeed with it financially.
    I totally get that. Heck, I'm a small business owner and am as empathetic as one could be. With all the best intents, though, how does a regular schmoe get to try out something that's unobtainium? Sure, borrow a buddy's for a few minutes, but what if you like it? Will I spend $1k for the privilege? Or $700 for a KTR? Even if I would, where and when will I find one? Realistically, it's not going to happen.

    Moral dilemma aside (and let's face; I'm not driving my amp with a black market Russian baby), even if I were to have a Klon available for purchase, it may not sound exactly like my pedal (I've been calling it the Boogie Monster). And isn't it about the results, not the label on the product? These are rhetorical statements 'cause we're usually on the same page.

    Quote Originally Posted by aristotle View Post
    Neat topic... Sounds like Boogie's rig is epic.

    My definition of "Grissom tone" isn't based on anything in particular...there are lots of ways to get there I guess... Didn't hurt that I was playing his sig guitar...
    Well, JFB's very kind words aside, I wouldn't call it epic. For me, it's inspiring. But it's all relative. Yes, it sounds pretty good, but most of my gear was selected only with tone in mind and I didn't hit the 'finish' lottery. Every time I see your gear I grin and shake my head. Just stunningly gorgeous, top shelf gear. Wow!

    Grissom-wise, I think everyone here is doing the same thing: taking a lead from DG and forging our own tonal personality. You don't have to use his gear but it sure doesn't hurt!

    Btw, I have to thank ZebraPRS/Jim Marrone. Jeff/Martysnarf passed on a PRS 1x12 combo cab to me, which he got from Jim. He generously gave that to him, which he did to me. That was the cab that Jesse played my rig thru 2 weeks ago. I put a V30 in it and it's perfect. The closest thing to a smaller PRS pine 2x12 I've found. Thank you Jim! And Jeff.
    Last edited by Boogie; 03-16-2014 at 02:42 PM.
    + '01 Custom 24 + '11 DGT Standard (Mr. Clean) + '09 SE One + Super Dallas + Stealth 2x12+

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Boogie View Post
    And isn't it about the results, not the label on the product?
    For me, no; the end doesn't justify the means. That doesn't mean I'm going to criticize anyone else.

    I simply don't want to see money going to anyone other than the person who originated the product, unless the product is no longer available on the retail market. Right now, that question is unanswered. I can wait to see how it turns out. I agree with you that it's a bit nuts to spend a few grand or whatever the prices are for the originals. But there are other great pedals on the market that I can be happy with.

    I've gone this long without a Klon, have gotten very fine tones, and have not felt that I suffered in the slightest degree, so my preference is to wait and see what happens with a new version of the KTR.

    It's just something I'll feel better about.

    The final issue is that back in the 90s, Finnegan bought up every NOS germanium transistor of the type he uses in the Klon that he could obtain on the market. Apparently, there aren't any more. So even with a very good clone, the buyer isn't getting the exact sound of the transistor he used for the clipping stage.

    Honestly, I can wait. It's not all that crucial.
    Last edited by LSchefman; 03-16-2014 at 03:05 PM.
    I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken...

    Website: http://www.elfxi.com

  9. #29
    Senior Member jfb's Avatar
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    Happy to see this thread get some activity from PRS amp owners.

    I keep seeing Grissom tone mentioned. Hard not to when talking PRS amp I know. And while it's likely moot at this point u want to make clear I'm not looking for Grissom's tone or anyone else's for that matter. I mentioned a Grissom style rig I know...I give most everything and everyone a nick name...it backfires plenty...and I call a rig consisting of a pedal board going into a single channel amp with no loop a Grissom style rig. Yes I'm a goon. So as I searched for PRS amp info and found I wished their was a lexicon so I made a post offering to put one together while seeing of anyone else wanted to get on the boat.

    But yeah I'd likely be happy with any PRS amp with a small board in front of it for what in looking to do.

    If I find the time and the interest I'm going to work on the list.
    Plank Owner

  10. #30
    SuperD Boogie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSchefman View Post
    For me, no; the end doesn't justify the means.

    Thats not what I meant. Despite my Lovepedal Kalamazoo Gold being touted as one of the most "Klon-like" pedals, I wasn't drawn to it because of or in spite of that fact. Nor would I boycott it because it strays I to the tonal range of someone else's product. That's absurd. It was the right tool for the job. My little OD pedal is marketed as a Klon clone kit, like those of virtually every other major pedal in existence. They are for the hobbyist and is akin to the old HeathKit business model. And since Finnegan uses different components and circuit tweaks, any infringement really equates to more free marketing/PR for his product. And that's a product not currently in production. Not sure why I'm defending my actions, but I felt compelled to do so.
    Last edited by Boogie; 03-16-2014 at 07:41 PM.
    + '01 Custom 24 + '11 DGT Standard (Mr. Clean) + '09 SE One + Super Dallas + Stealth 2x12+

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Boogie View Post
    There are no patents on circuit designs.
    There certainly are!

    Many circuit design patents have been granted.

    A good example is the patent granted to Texas Instruments for its miniaturized electronic circuit. Another is the Noyce-Fairchild semiconductor patent for computers. In fact these patents are why Fairchild and TI spent years in famous court cases over their integrated circuits..

    As a Mesa/Boogie fan, you of all my buds should know that Mesa Boogie has been granted a number of patents for its circuits:

    http://www.mesaboogie.com/patents/patents.htm

    There are a number of requirements for patentability, however, and I don't remember them from my law school days. Whether Finnegan's circuit was sufficiently novel in meeting these requirements, thus patentable, or not, isn't the reason I feel the way I do about this issue anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boogie View Post
    He wasn't the first to use a charge pump not the first to use germanium transistors for gain. The tone circuit isn't unique nor is the case. Like you said, it was about component selection and his circuit tweaks around them. The result was unique.
    By stating that I can't justify making the same choice for myself does not mean that I'm critical of you.

    I mentioned early in another post that I wasn't criticizing anyone else. The man isn't selling anything right now. I was simply explaining why I would make a different choice, to wait and see what happens. Not because patent law requires it, or for any other reason than I sympathize with the fellow.

    As you say, the result was unique; therefore, if possible, I'd like Finnegan to make the money. Nothing more complicated than that.

    As far as I can tell, Finnegan was very foolish not to contract with someone with the capital to go into real production; and he was foolish to cease production on the Klon thereby inviting cloners because there was no "legit" source of the product at the time.

    He's probably a very poor businessman. But I'd still like to see him make a few bucks if possible. And I have my doubts as to whether he will go into production, ever again. So I'm waiting to see.
    Last edited by LSchefman; 03-16-2014 at 08:10 PM.
    I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken...

    Website: http://www.elfxi.com

  12. #32
    Senior Member Dirty Bob's Avatar
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    My 2 cents....Finnegan...... has had opportunity after opportunity....

    We play guitars attempting to sound like the classics....we play amps that are PTP clones of some of the finest vintage amps...we use overdrives that are takes on tube screamers......so on and so forth blah blah blah....nothing wrong with a Klone...I use a JHS Klone in my rig....it kills...have Bill come to market with a consistent product....and make it available....if not his loss....plain and simple...if there is demand a product will be made by someone.

    at some point I'll post regarding the HXDA and the Recording Head...although it's not gonna be a lot different than what I've posted in the past.

    HXDA, Recording Head, and 25th Anniversary all fall squarely in the vintage Marshall camp....internally bridged Marshall's...bad to the bone.

  13. #33
    Senior Member Dirty Bob's Avatar
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    Hey Les...you quoted Boogie while he was in the middle of an edit...and then have edited your post multiple times....since....let's all cool it...please.....way off topic from the intent of this thread.


    I'm guilty too....back to amps.

  14. #34
    Haha! I always work on my posts and edit them in progress, because sometimes I notice I wasn't being clear. I see Boogie did the same. I didn't see his edits when I was editing my own writing. In fact, if you look at any of my posts anywhere on the forum, many of them get edited because I discover a typo or other error and want to correct it.

    This isn't an argument.

    I'm not at all critical of Boogie.

    I took pains to explain that my position is exclusively my own, not a prescription for anyone else. I don't see why anyone would get bent out of shape.
    Last edited by LSchefman; 03-16-2014 at 08:23 PM.
    I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken...

    Website: http://www.elfxi.com

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Bob View Post
    HXDA, Recording Head, and 25th Anniversary all fall squarely in the vintage Marshall camp....internally bridged Marshall's...bad to the bone.
    Yes, they do, and if Marshall was still making hand-wired Plexis that sounded like the HXDA, I'd have considered one. However, Marshall doesn't make them any more. I have yet to hear a Marshall made after the early 70s that I'd be interested in.

    This is why I stated that I'm waiting to see what Finnegan does. I never said that it's wrong to get a clone.

    And Marshall used the Fender Bassman circuit that Fender got from the RCA Radio Handbook that was given away to promote radio manufacture by RCA. So it's public domain.
    Last edited by LSchefman; 03-16-2014 at 08:26 PM.
    I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken...

    Website: http://www.elfxi.com

  16. #36
    Senior Member Dirty Bob's Avatar
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    All I know is I have a bunch of good gear that was built on the foundations of innovators that have come before....


    And I am grateful to have so many amazing tools to make great music!!!

  17. #37
    Senior Member Dirty Bob's Avatar
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    http://www.marshallamps.com/products...dwired-series/


    hey....just saying....I sympathize though.......I gig an HXDA and a Recording Head!


    and the sound is to die for!!,

  18. #38
    Senior Member Dirty Bob's Avatar
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    I think it's funny....the forum's first Klone fight! Well.... at least I believe it's the first one.......there goes the neighborhood....

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Bob View Post
    http://www.marshallamps.com/products...dwired-series/


    hey....just saying....I sympathize though.......I gig an HXDA and a Recording Head!


    and the sound is to die for!!,
    I did some recording in France several years ago with Laurie Wisefield (Wishbone Ash, Clapton, Joe Cocker, etc.), and to do the work we brought in several reissues from that series. I think you can see one of the amps in this photo taken during our sessions:



    We worked in Plus XXX Studio in Paris (now closed unfortunately, it was a world class facility), and spent a week recording with the amps. I really think I have some significant experience with them. It's my honest feeling that they don't really capture the tones the HXDA has. Not close. I used them with the guitar I brought, too. They weren't bad, just not for me.

    In fact, if they had sounded like the HXDA, I'd have bought one of the ones we used in a heartbeat. Just my two cents.

    Laurie is a great, phenomenal player, and he uses them exclusively. He played impossibly well, and the clients were happy. It's all about the performance anyway. But I thought they were harsh compared with the originals. They certainly lacked the buttery smooth quality of the PRS amps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Bob View Post
    I think it's funny....the forum's first Klone fight! Well.... at least I believe it's the first one.......there goes the neighborhood....
    Bob, it wasn't intended to be a fight. At all.

    A statement of one's feelings, even if it's not the same as someone else's, is not a fight. It's a discussion.
    Last edited by LSchefman; 03-16-2014 at 11:28 PM.
    I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken...

    Website: http://www.elfxi.com

  20. #40
    Happy Egads's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSchefman View Post
    Bob, it wasn't intended to be a fight. At all.

    A statement of one's feelings, even if it's not the same as someone else's, is not a fight. It's a discussion.
    OK. Who gets banned, who goes home and kicks their dog, and who feels like they won? That's what happens, right? It must, 'cause I read about it on the interwebs.

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