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Thread: "Sinker" on Sigs

  1. #21
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    Re: "Sinker" on Sigs

    Well, I am certainly no wood expert by any means. I was just going by what I learned the term to mean.

  2. #22
    Recovering Bass Player ]-[ @ n $ 0 |v| a T ! 's Avatar
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    Re: "Sinker" on Sigs

    This issue is clearly defined: There is disparity between what Paul has called "Sinker" Mahogany and what others may call sinker Mahogany.

    If you own one of these guitars, you don't need any more evidence to choose a productive path forward:
    Path #1: Contact your dealer and/or PRS Customer Service
    Path #2: Accept Paul's explanation (See video in this thread) and continue to enjoy the guitar

    Either way, let the Truth stand.
    One Life

  3. #23
    A Top (and Heart) of Gold Goldtop's Avatar
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    Re: "Sinker" on Sigs

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans
    This issue is clearly defined: There is disparity between what Paul has called "Sinker" Mahogany and what others may call sinker Mahogany.

    If you own one of these guitars, you don't need any more evidence to choose a productive path forward:
    Path #1: Contact your dealer and/or PRS Customer Service
    Path #2: Accept Paul's explanation (See video in this thread) and continue to enjoy the guitar

    Either way, let the Truth stand.
    Thank you Hans. Hopefully, for those who feel wronged in some way, one of those two choices will suffice.

    Goldtop
    'Did you ever get down on your hands and knees and beg a potato to get fat?' - Ezra Craddock

  4. #24
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    Re: "Sinker" on Sigs

    Quote Originally Posted by LSchefman
    Quote Originally Posted by Buickrob
    Here we go again. Get out of lawyer mode and google sinker mahogany. You will see why people thought it was something else.
    If your assumption was that I'd see this thread and not express my opinion, you were wrong.

    Let me know when the Internet becomes the authoritative source on industry practices or truth.
    I am not talking about "authoritative," I am talking about general opinion. This does not have to be a court decision by Judge Schefman.


    Anyway, I think you at least see how people would think they were getting recovered wood due to a general understanding of what is commonly referred to as Sinker.

  5. #25

    Re: "Sinker" on Sigs

    Me for about 18 months: "Jack, 408's available in a production model yet?"
    Jack for about 18 months: "nope. sorry."

    Experience 2011
    Me: "Paul, when will 408's be available in a production model?"
    PRSh: <glare>

    January, 2012:
    Me: "Jack, production model 408's are out. I'll take a green one with a wang bar"
    Jack: "Done"

    a couple weeks later in January, 2012:
    Me: "Sounds great! Feels great"
    Jack: "it has blah and blah and sinker blah.."
    Me: "Don't care, sounds great, feels great. I want one with a quilt top, stoptail, purple hazel"

    Experience, 2012:
    Me: "Paul, when can I get a hotter neck pickup in 408 form factor?"
    PRSh: <glare> "You guys are never satisfied, you're always pushing the envelope of technology and creativity"
    Me: "I know. We're just like you. That's why we buy PRS" :lol:
    (513 / P22 / McShootout / DC 245 Ted / DGT / DC22 / Santana / Cu22 Rosewood / 408 Rosewood / SAS / Cu22 Semi hollow / Sig LTD / Mira korina / HBII / SE Angelus Custom / SE Mushok) >> {Archon, C, H, Dallas, Original Sewell}

  6. #26

    Re: "Sinker" on Sigs

    Quote Originally Posted by Buickrob
    I am not talking about "authoritative," I am talking about general opinion. This does not have to be a court decision by Judge Schefman.
    Not me. I could never handle being a judge. A judge is supposed to be impartial. I'm incapable of being impartial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buickrob
    Anyway, I think you at least see how people would think they were getting recovered wood due to a general understanding of what is commonly referred to as Sinker.
    Certainly, I can see how people might think that.

    Let me clarify: that isn't what I found troubling.

    Let me make this distinction:

    If people had simply said, "We thought we were getting X. We didn't get X. Why?" Or "Can you correct the situation?" that would be entirely reasonable.

    When people say, "We thought we were getting X. We didn't get X. That means we were intentionally misled, because the industry standard is that X can mean only this," I think they're getting way ahead of themselves, and an unfair accusation is being made.

    As it happens, I'm a big fan of Paul Reed Smith. I think many of us share that admiration and feel an affinity for the company. I'm the kind of guy who will stand up and speak out against what isn't right whenever I can, and that goes double for someone whose work I admire.

    So...what can I tell you. I'm a fighter, not a referee.
    I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken...

    Website: http://www.elfxi.com

  7. #27
    Senior Member PRSHB2's Avatar
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    Re: "Sinker" on Sigs

    I'm quite confident that all of us here are HUGE fans of PRS. I know I am. Just because we have differing opinions doesn't mean we no longer feel the love. If all of us thought exactly the same way there might be only one model of PRS. With that in mind, I'm very glad we don't all agree, all the time.

  8. #28
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    Re: "Sinker" on Sigs

    Quote Originally Posted by LSchefman
    When people say, "We thought we were getting X. We didn't get X. That means we were intentionally misled, because the industry standard is that X can mean only this," I think they're getting way ahead of themselves, and an unfair accusation is being made.
    I hope you realIze THIS particular thread has not gone to that ugly place. I think we have all been careful and respectful enough to avoid that. I have re-read the thread and do not find any accusations of buyers being intentionally misled. Why would you then go there in defense when it has not actually happened? Customers are saying they are disappointed but no one has outright called shenanagins here my friend.

  9. #29
    Bobble Head Moderator JMintzer's Avatar
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    Re: "Sinker" on Sigs

    ---Jamie---

    My Gear

  10. #30
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    Re: "Sinker" on Sigs

    Quote Originally Posted by JMintzer

    So then kill the thread. As long as it is up though I'm not going to have one guy play "Protector of the Universe" and defend against accusations that have not been made here.

    I agree though that this is not worh it at this point and I took Hans' suggestion and emailed customer support. Dead horses I guess :roll:

  11. #31

    Re: "Sinker" on Sigs

    Quote Originally Posted by JMintzer
    Geez, Jamie, I hope you don't hurt your head while I'm singlehandedly protecting the entire Star League and the rest of the universe out here on the frontier...
    I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken...

    Website: http://www.elfxi.com

  12. #32

    Re: "Sinker" on Sigs

    Quote Originally Posted by Buickrob
    I have re-read the thread and do not find any accusations of buyers being intentionally misled. Why would you then go there in defense when it has not actually happened? Customers are saying they are disappointed but no one has outright called shenanagins here my friend.
    I guess I have to be nice when someone calls me a friend...for the last time, and then I'm done too: I've copied and pasted these quotes from this very thread:

    "I do feel cheated to a certain degree..." Another says, "In my opinion, use of the word "sinker" to describe a mahogany neck was misleading."

    Cheated? Misleading? If that isn't outright calling shenanigans, I don't know what could be.

    Now we could disagree forever here and poor Mintzer will have himself one gigantic figurative headache from smashing his figurative head into his figurative desk. I see from your post that you're going to contact PRS to see if you can squeeze your pound of flesh out of them. So at least this thread served its purpose for you.

    Meantime I have to return to the frontier to defend the universe...
    I saw ten thousand talkers whose tongues were all broken...

    Website: http://www.elfxi.com

  13. #33
    408 Sig Club President Twinfan's Avatar
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    Re: "Sinker" on Sigs

    Quote Originally Posted by LSchefman
    "I do feel cheated to a certain degree..." Another says, "In my opinion, use of the word "sinker" to describe a mahogany neck was misleading."

    Cheated? Misleading? If that isn't outright calling shenanigans, I don't know what could be.
    Just because I "feel cheated to a certain degree" it does not necessarily mean I think the aim to was to intentionally decieve.

    I'm just stating what I think right now, after the PRS meaning of "sinker" has come to light.

  14. #34
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    Re: "Sinker" on Sigs

    Thanks, bye.

  15. #35
    Carvin Striations cwhenke's Avatar
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    Re: "Sinker" on Sigs

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans
    This issue is clearly defined: There is disparity between what Paul has called "Sinker" Mahogany and what others may call sinker Mahogany.

    If you own one of these guitars, you don't need any more evidence to choose a productive path forward:
    Path #1: Contact your dealer and/or PRS Customer Service
    Path #2: Accept Paul's explanation (See video in this thread) and continue to enjoy the guitar

    Either way, let the Truth stand.
    OK, so I'll start by saying that I have read this thread in three different locations. I don't have one of the guitars in question, so this is what I think some of you are saying:

    PRS as a company, with its experts in wood (Paul himself has acknowledged using the same wood buyers for many, many years because they are so good at finding the best woods), should have known better than to use an industry definition in an incorrect way. I think a lot of this has been targeted directly at Paul himself because of the video, but I think it really comes down to the idea that someone within PRS should have caught it before it was advertised that way.
    Too many and never enough...

  16. #36
    Bobble Head Moderator JMintzer's Avatar
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    Re: "Sinker" on Sigs

    Quote Originally Posted by Buickrob
    Quote Originally Posted by JMintzer

    So then kill the thread. As long as it is up though I'm not going to have one guy play "Protector of the Universe" and defend against accusations that have not been made here.

    I agree though that this is not worh it at this point and I took Hans' suggestion and emailed customer support. Dead horses I guess :roll:
    What? And satisfy those who think we're a bunch of tight asses over here? No thanks...

    My comment was not directed at any one individual. Just the circular argument that has been made, responded to, made again, responded to etc, etc, etc...

    Even my shampoo bottle does not say "rinse and repeat until the end of time"...

    At this point, pretty much everyone has had their say. Now y'all are just arguing for the sake of arguing...


    Jamie
    ---Jamie---

    My Gear

  17. #37
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    Re: "Sinker" on Sigs

    Quote Originally Posted by JMintzer
    Quote Originally Posted by Buickrob
    Quote Originally Posted by JMintzer

    So then kill the thread. As long as it is up though I'm not going to have one guy play "Protector of the Universe" and defend against accusations that have not been made here.

    I agree though that this is not worh it at this point and I took Hans' suggestion and emailed customer support. Dead horses I guess :roll:
    What? And satisfy those who think we're a bunch of tight asses over here? No thanks...

    My comment was not directed at any one individual. Just the circular argument that has been made, responded to, made again, responded to etc, etc, etc...

    Even my shampoo bottle does not say "rinse and repeat until the end of time"...

    At this point, pretty much everyone has had their say. Now y'all are just arguing for the sake of arguing...


    Jamie
    Well played.

  18. #38
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    Re: "Sinker" on Sigs

    Fact: I own a PS Siggy.

    Fact: The COA states that the neck is "Sinker Mahagony"

    Fact: The neck is NOT "sinker Mahagony" based on a) those who are wood experts and b)based on the general usage of the term. This "knowledge" is not my opinion. It is fact.

    Fact: It matters not to me. I would have bought the guitar whether or not it was boasting a "sinker Mahagony" neck.

    Fact: There are some out there, who might NOT have bought the guitar if they had known about the UNINTENTIONAL misrepresentation. Those people have been provided with recommendations with regard to how to proceed. Those recommendations sound reasonable. I am sure the company will stand behind any complaints and do the right thing...whatever that may be.

    Fact: there are some out there who would seek to turn a debate into a lynching. We ARE allowed to discuss this, and we ARE allowed to express opinions....those who would seek to judge those opinions should recognize that they ARE being judgemental. I have read some of the comments. I would think that accusing someone who is NOT a wood expert of being "Just another guy in a tinfoil hat discussing space aliens" to be somewhat inflamatory.

    I believe that it is the judgemental comments and the "so-called expertise" of non-experts that have served to create more controversy than necessary.

    And yes...my '87 "Red Krinkle" PRS came from the factory with a sweet switch that had a washer!!

    Just my 2 cents on an already "debated-to-death" topic.

  19. #39
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    Re: "Sinker" on Sigs

    Quote Originally Posted by LSchefman
    To my mind, these accusations are unfounded and a bit obnoxious.

    PRS clearly had no motivation whatsoever to mislead a soul.
    Les....and you know this, how?? When was the last time you had dinner with Paul and discussed his marketing strategy and the intentions behind his representations?

    Again...I have no problem with PRSh or PRS the company. but...I can relate to Twinfan who bought 2 of the PS Siggys and factored the rarity of the wood into his purchase decision.

    Again...my only concern is the judgemental comments critical of those who raise the debate....and my concern for those who bought the guitar(s) with the incorrect assumption regarding the etiology of the wood.

    Les...are you positioning yourself to be the next legal council for PRS?? :lol:

  20. #40
    408 Sig Club President Twinfan's Avatar
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    Re: "Sinker" on Sigs

    I have a question on this subject. Why has the reference to "sinker" mahogany been removed from the Private Stock Signature run specs on the PRS website? It used to be there and is clearly stated on the PS certificates:

    http://www.prsguitars.com/2011_signatureltd/specs.php



    It's still there for the Limiteds:

    http://www.prsguitars.com/signaturelimited/specs.php

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